What if feeling is more important than seeing?

[Calamity Jane]

I'm on an unusual path that I suspect is not well traveled. I've closed down my range diary, let go of all external goals, to embrace a quest of exploration into how far I can let go when shooting a gun.

Oddly, that has taken me to training in the dark. I didn't intellectually decide to train in the dark...it just sort of happened and feels right. I've been dry firing with my open gun, in the dark, in front of a large mirror. The lessons there have been rewarding to me. One of the things I realized last night is that I can feel and execute the draw better in the dark, with my eyes closed than with my eyes open. What is really cool is...I don't even have to open my eyes to know if my draw was "spot on". When I'm "on" the red dot of the scope reflects onto my eyelid and I can feel/sense/see it without opening my eyes. After discovering how well I could execute upstairs in the dark with eyes closed...I went to my basement dry fire range and practiced some 20 yd draws with eyes open and eyes closed. Again..with my eyes closed I was more accurate and smooth...no need to correct the dot at all.

SOOOO...what if vision in itself is limiting? What if I've been short changing my shooting experience by not being totally tuned in to feeling?

Interesting.....

Ofcourse we have to see! But what if there is something out there that most of us are not tapped into? What if there is an awareness above sight? I think there might be and I'm going to continue to explore it. I think it might be possible to shoot with "the force" I'm half joking and half serious. I'm interacting with something in my training...that I don't know exactly what it is or what it means...but I know it's powerful.

I'm hoping some of you Zen minded people will know what I'm talking about!

[XRe]

Go draw and shoot plates at 10 or so yards with your eyes closed, now. Seriously.

What you've tapped in to is physical self-awareness. Its definitely important, and its definitely not the only tool you need from the toolbox. But its way cool stuff

[NMBOpen]

Driving to a match somewhere, listening to satellite radio country station, and hear a line in a song: "If You Look A Little Less, You Might See a Whole Lot More". That struck me in Zen sort of way that had nothing to do with the rest of the song.

Edited January 27, 2009 by NMCOpen

[Steve J]

Ah, the Star Wars generation. It was bound to come to this.

[Jake Di Vita]

SOOOO...what if vision in itself is limiting? What if I've been short changing my shooting experience by not being totally tuned in to feeling?

Focus in itself is limiting. Don't think about vision so 1 dimensionally....vision is only a portion of awareness.

[Calamity Jane]

Yep...physical awareness is what I'm refining. My question is....and one I will take to the range and experiment with is...

What if one "amped" up their physical awareness to a point where it almost dominated their visual awareness?

Also..it has been said that female brains are more intuitive than male brains. What if a woman "amped" up that intuitiveness as applied to shooting? My physical awareness and intuition may be stronger than my visual awareness...what would happen if I allowed myself to shoot from that strength?? This goes along the experimental "letting go" path I am on

Oh my goodness...it just came to me....WE HAVE A KNOWING! Remember the trying, trusting, knowing thing. Women have a built in knowing!! Somehow I don't think Flex and Brian are going to let me get away with that statement!

Edited January 27, 2009 by Calamity Jane

[XRe]

My physical awareness and intuition may be stronger than my visual awareness...what would happen if I allowed myself to shoot from that strength??

As opposed to using it as another input along with vision, etc? That's pretty easy. You'll start missing A lot Even on very up close stuff, where I'm relying on physical awareness to drive the gun into the target, and sighting over the top of the gun, I'm still using vision to confirm that the gun is where it needs to be, and that I've called the shots where they went. Physical awareness is somewhat subjective - it should be trusted to tell you what it can, but don't expect to be running through courses of fire, engaging targets solely by feel, and having anything resembling positive results Vision is not overrated...

[Jake Di Vita]

What if one "amped" up their physical awareness to a point where it almost dominated their visual awareness?

That's my point. I don't differentiate between the two. Awareness is awareness - regardless of where it comes from. Vision is just the avenue which gives us the most feedback while we shoot - and is 100% reliable and repeatable under match conditions. If it isn't repeatable, I don't want to use it come match time.

[Calamity Jane]

What if one "amped" up their physical awareness to a point where it almost dominated their visual awareness?

XRE...I'm not saying you can only shoot with physical awareness. OFCOURSE seeing is important! Duh!

No one seems willing to step out of the box and explore the possibilities.

In shooting we rely, talk about, focus on the aspect of SEEING. I'm trying to get out of that box mentally and physically to see what else is out there. What is beyond seeing?

Brian...I'm begging you to chime in. I have a hunch you know where I'm at on my path.

[XRe]

No one seems willing to step out of the box and explore the possibilities.

Or perhaps you're ignoring that we've already explored the area "out of the box" and come back into it, cause its what works...

[Calamity Jane]

No one seems willing to step out of the box and explore the possibilities.

Or perhaps you're ignoring that we've already explored the area "out of the box" and come back into it, cause its what works...

OK..perhaps this may be an exercise in "the grass is always greener on the other side" But since you know I'm at home on a snow day with nothing else to do but think...I'm going to continue to question.

Let's say:

Step one....a quiet mind

Step two....seeing

Step three....astue body awareness (which comes from a boat load of training)

Step four.....what's next???

What's beyond that? Is there more power to be tapped into beyond that?

What about my spirit...my intuition? How does that apply to shooting?

"I walk by faith not by sight" that's my spiritual orientation....how does that fit into shooting? Could that fit into shooting?

Let me try to be more concrete in thought.

I do mag changes pretty well. When Cheely was here teaching a class he questioned me, "Are you even looking at that reload?" And the answer is "yes" I do look at the mag change BUT I don't change a mag by seeing. My mind is blank, my eyes are on the mag well but I don't have any conscious thought of seeing what I'm seeing, my body is tuned to perform the task without any direction what so ever from my brain. I don't think it, I don't see it, I just do it. I think this may be the closest I have come to the "knowing" concept that Flex and Brian have talked about...but then again....I don't know what I know and what I don't know.

Oh MY I'm having a wonderfully mentally exhausting day. I've need this!!!

I'm going to add....you can't do a task without some sort of mental instruction and in this case it is all happening in the sub conscious....but the EXPERIENCE is one of total just doing with nothing else clouding it. That's the way I want to shoot a course of fire and I think one day I will be able to. I've gotten little taste of what that is like. I'm looking for when the little taste of it becomes the main meal. Each year I get closer to it.

Edited January 27, 2009 by Calamity Jane

[Calamity Jane]

Here's another example...

I shot 3 targets at Nationals without a scope (no lens in the c-more)...one target at around 15 yards and the other 2 at 7 yards with no shoots covering half of them...got all my hits.

That was not shooting by sight. What was that? Where was I shooting from? Was I shooting from body awareness?

OK maybe it was just luck.

But what if I was shooting from a place that transcended sight? Does that place exist?

Which leads me back to the question....what is beyond sight? We need sight...but what's beyond it?

Am I dancing around the concept of "knowing"??? Is that what I'm lurking about for? Is that what I'm trying to understand?

Is "knowing" what is beyond sight and body awareness?

Edited January 27, 2009 by Calamity Jane

[Jake Di Vita]

BUT I don't change a mag by seeing. My mind is blank, my eyes are on the mag well but I don't have any conscious thought of seeing what I'm seeing, my body is tuned to perform the task without any direction what so ever from my brain. I don't think it, I don't see it, I just do it.

That is awareness. What you're doing is called reification. It is the error of treating as a "real thing" something which is not a real thing, but merely an idea. Don't over complicate things so much.

[38supPat]

Here's another example...

I shot 3 targets at Nationals without a scope (no lens in the c-more)...one target at around 15 yards and the other 2 at 7 yards with no shoots covering half of them...got all my hits.

That was not shooting by sight. What was that? Where was I shooting from? Was I shooting from body awareness?

OK maybe it was just luck.

But what if I was shooting from a place that transcended sight? Does that place exist?

Which leads me back to the question....what is beyond sight? We need sight...but what's beyond it?

Am I dancing around the concept of "knowing"??? Is that what I'm lurking about for? Is that what I'm trying to understand?

Is "knowing" what is beyond sight and body awareness?

I think you are confusing "sight" with vision. The targets would not have had hits if you did not see during the string. What you are doing is trying to put a definition and possibly a limit on seeing. You are looking at sight as in using or controlling the sights. But seeing is taking in anything and everything that has to do with the shooting. You may not have used your sights on that string, but you did use your vision to direct the shots. Did you look at the scoring zones on the targets while shooting, or were you looking at something else? The grass? The props? You are starting to tap into an opening of your vision and realizing that the 'old' ways, sight picture (dot or irons) being everything, is not the only possibility.

You are not "beyond" sight, only now beginning to see.

Knowing is not a present tense, and you need present tense while shooting. You cannot know anything, but you can see everything

[38supPat]

SOOOO...what if vision in itself is limiting? What if I've been short changing my shooting experience by not being totally tuned in to feeling?

Vision in itself cannot be limiting, but we can place limits on it.

Really we don't want seeing or feeling to be more or less important, we want a harmony of all the senses.

[fiddler]

I once shot an entire match with my eyes closed.

I scored mostly As and had my best finish ever.

Then I woke up.

But seriously, the exploration of what happens outside the usual boundaries can give new perspective on what happens within those boundaries. Keep going, young lady, and thanks for sharing your experience.

Roy

[XRe]

Step one....a quiet mind

Step two....seeing

Step three....astue body awareness (which comes from a boat load of training)

Step four.....what's next???

These are not discrete steps - rather, they are qualities of approaching being in present tense. As you are picking up on more "stuff", you are simply becoming more aware. There are other qualities that appear, as well - mental awareness (that is, awareness of the internal actions of your mind, including your motivations, desires, etc). Greater awareness, for me, manifests as both a distillation down to the heart of the thing, as well as a peeling back of a new layer at the same time. You will likely find that you continue to peel back layers of what it means for you to have a quiet mind, or to "see", or...

You don't own those things - you experience them to varying degrees. There's nothing beyond, because there is no beyond. There just is.

Normal to question, and they're interesting questions to ask on a snowy day, trapped at home. The only answers come through experience, though, and you're not likely to believe us until you do experience it for yourself

"I walk by faith not by sight" that's my spiritual orientation....how does that fit into shooting? Could that fit into shooting?

What does the term faith mean to you, in the context of shooting? (no offense intended by the next sentence) Certainly, its not that you can blindly spray bullets and the holes will appear in the A-zone, simply because you have faith, right? Faith without works is dead, after all

My mind is blank, my eyes are on the mag well but I don't have any conscious thought of seeing what I'm seeing, my body is tuned to perform the task without any direction what so ever from my brain. I don't think it, I don't see it, I just do it.

Jake and Pat have said it. You're confusing "seeing" with conscious guidance. You see in present tense. You don't think in present tense - by the time you think, you are far out of present tense. This is fundamental to letting go, and performing subconsciously. You can see everything that you need, react on it, and perform - all without a conscious thought. That is exactly what you are describing. Through repetition and practice, you've told the subconscious how to reload the gun - your subconscious uses sight and proprioceptive inputs to make it happen. This is performing at a higher order than via conscious direction.

I know it feels like using the force You're just getting out of your own way, and discovering there's a whole lot that's hiding under there...

I'm looking for when the little taste of it becomes the main meal.

Aren't we all??

That was not shooting by sight. What was that? Where was I shooting from? Was I shooting from body awareness?

A few things come together - solid grip and stance plus experience (which includes visual input on how the gun looks as its presented to targets similar to those in question) give you a certain idea where the gun is at in space, and where its pointed simply by "feel" and the rough look of things. In short, you were shooting subconsciously in (probably) a Type 2 focus (see Brian's book). Maybe not how you'd prefer to be shooting 15 yard targets, or partials, but it can work in a pinch...

[Flexmoney]

Somehow I don't think Flex and Brian are going to let me get away with that statement!

I'm not done reading yet...but, what you have is BS. (In the Penn & Teller sense of the term.)

You haven't yet figured out one aspect of your game, so you are trying to mentally BS yourself into something else. I've seen that so often throughout life (and you have too). It's the old..."I'm different, so all the logic and wisdom of those that have been down this path...that doesn't apply to me." (And, no...I don't mean to say that there is a definitive"way" that must be followed. I'll expand on that in a minute.*)

BTW, I've found that womens' intuition sucks just about as bad as everybody else's intuition. I did read about a study that showed where the relative length on one's ring finger determined financial success.

Each year I get closer to it.

Be careful that you don't set yourself back a bit (or, more accurately, don't slow your forward progress).

You've learned something and experienced something, but you don't yet have a grasp on it. So, don't jump to conclusions. Which, I know is amazingly hard to (not) do...as we like to put things where they are "supposed to go". We tend to have a need to add attachments and file things. Once we do...we have distorted a thing.

[Jake Di Vita]

Well...I suppose there's an easy way to test this.

Next match you shoot, keep your dot off for the duration of it. If nothing else, it'll be an interesting learning experience.

[Flexmoney]

The Star Wars reference gives me a segue...

I talked a few times before about seeing ourselves as the Captain of the Starship Enterprise. <clickity>

I've also spoke about our 'senses' other than vision. We have our five general senses, then we have some other stuff..spatial awareness..kinesthetic awareness..proprioception (a term I didn't know when Dave used it, but I was going to talk about...thanks Dave)...etc.

hmmm...while looking up to see if I was spelling kinesthetic correctly, I found this... good read <clickity>.

We can get pretty preachy around here about "vision". And, rightly so...as vision is one of our most important sensors and has proven quite reliable. And, there are a variety of ways to "see" with our vision. (there could be lots more said on this variety of vision...as many lock into what they think they are supposed to see...which is probably a source of conflict)

What we need to be mindful of is that these things (sensory inputs) aren't in competition with one another. They compliment one another.

So, when one set of sensors seems to be giving us something different than we expect ("expect" equals attachement, btw ?) then we need to explore that. What else can we notice...what else can we experience...now that we are more aware? Why would I feel there is conflict between my vision and my feel? What is the source of that?

You will be in conflict, until you explore the source of the conflict. Explore it to find the truth of it. Boil it down to it's essence. When the conflict is resolved (harmony?)...I think that is the only time you can get to "knowing". Until then, you must "trust". And, you will base that trust in whatever you currently believe is giving you the best results (whether that is true of not).

[XRe]

An interesting point about vision, as it applies to proprioception.... Your body actually utilizes peripheral vision to enhance your stability and sense of balance. This is part of the reason for sea sickness in some people - one set of inputs (visual) don't match another (inner ear), and the body doesn't know how to react to it, but give the person a horizon line that matches the movement detected by the inner ear, and the issue subsides... So, in a certain sense... "vision" IS "feel"....

[Flexmoney]

Sea sick. That is a fantastic example of sensory conflict (and expectations)

[ong45]

Since we're talkin about shooting blind, someone told me a story about Jethro Dionisio. Seems when he was still shooting steel challenge he was seen on the practice range shooting 5 to go blindfolded !!! Getting his hits more often than not i'm told.

Make of it what you will

[Duane Thomas]

What you're doing is called reification. It is the error of treating as a "real thing" something which is not a real thing, but merely an idea.

The fact that something is an idea does not mean it's not real.

In my opinion it's very useful to open yourself up to other sensory inputs while shooting. How hard am I gripping the gun, how does it feel as it tracks in my hand, etc.? We can't do it all with our vision, even if that's where our conscious focus is, so it seems like that's what we're doing. Wherever our conscious focus is will tend to seem "real" to us. That doesn't mean the things that do not consciously register are not "real"; they are, they're occurring, they're important. Once we have a greater understanding, and experience of, the "feel" of shooting, we can then trust that, let it go, and watch the sights with detached confidence.

[Duane Thomas]

Jane,

GREAT post, by way. And a great thread. There's a lot to be said for thinking outside the box. Even if it eventually seems we wind up back inside the box, that's not true. Because the person who goes back inside the box is fundamentally different from the person who came out. We've been changed by our time outside the box.

Duane