Brand new xl650 primer detonation

[c2d2]

KaBoom!!

This is my first post to these forums, but i have been reading along a bit since getting turned on to (and subsequently addicted to) IDPA the last 8 months with a few coworkers.

A couple of us pitched in on an xl650 with most of the goodies about a month ago. We chose the 650 due to to the overwhelming advice from the seasoned shooters and reloaders at our club. Whom, i must say, are some of the finest folks i've met anywhere!

Tonight was our inaugural session with the Dillon, having the Club MD and an IDPA Master (both experienced with Dillon equipment) come out to help us finish setup and fine tuning of the press so we could start production. (once again i'd like to thank the folks in our club for their willingness to embrace new shooters!) Initially all went well - fine tuning all the stations to recommended specs with relative ease. All the dies were set just right and it was time to move to full production.

Unfortunately, once we added live primers into the mix things got messy. We immediately started having primer seating problems, mashing or missing primers at least as often as we got well seated ones. It seemed that the cases at this station were not lining up properly or that the primer system was not indexing correctly. We kept working on it and watching closely to try and troubleshoot the problem with the primer seating. Then all of a sudden KABOOM!!!! My worst fear about reloading materialized itself before we could even produce 30 good rounds!

I won't bore you with the details since they are almost verbatim in the post at http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...l650+detonation Except that in our case the follower rod hit an 8ft fluorescent light bulb tube and rained glass down on us and everything else. Thankfully no one was injured. Most, if not all, of the primers in the magazine went off in the chain reaction, damaging the inner primer magazine tube and its brass fitting, and completely deforming the follower rod. Other components seem ok or able to be straightened after disassembly.

I'll be calling Dillon in the morning about this experience (and asking for some new magazine parts at the least), and am sharing it here for the benefit of all, to get it off my chest, and seek any advice anyone might have. What is most interesting to me after having searched the other posts on this issue is that the equipment was brand new and the problems can't be attributed to dirtiness or wear. Moreover, we had experienced hands at the helm, and the primer system was completely virgin and, I assume, factory preset.

My initial reaction (based on observation) is that the metal tang on the primer/powder station that acts as a spring loaded locator button was not doing an adequate job of keeping the case seated in the shell plate - there seemed to be a lot of play there. However, i can't move forward until i get some new primer mag parts. Kudos to our club members, who said they'll come back out when the parts arrive, and have really made my IDPA experience more than just a fun sport.

Any and all feedback is appreciated!!

[Jon Merricks]

What primers were you using?

[JThompson]

:surprise:

[c2d2]

"What primers were you using?"

Federal.

Sorry for the lack of specs. Loading 9x19 primarily for glocks. Used Brass, not new. Press purchased setup for 9mm.

One of the guys just emailed me this link:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ic=22850&hl

[DanM]

Once you get the bugs worked out, try Winchesters. I have a 650 and a 1050. I am AMAZED at what I can do to a Winchester primer in the 1050 and not set them off...

[gm iprod]

I think you are trying to fix a symptom not the disease. Just because it was working well up to adding the primers it does not mean the primers are the issue.

Cases!?

What brand?

Military Crimp?

I suggest getting some new cases or cases from factory (non military or police) ammunition and try them. Sort and clean your cases properly, use case lube. If this does not help then I would look at the primer unit itself. Make sure all is well there. If the guys at the factory had a bad day and installed the incorrect primer plate / seater this will not help. I always check the plate before loading primers even with machine direct from Dillon. I have found two that were not correct.

[edwin garcia]

Once you get the bugs worked out, try Winchesters. I have a 650 and a 1050. I am AMAZED at what I can do to a Winchester primer in the 1050 and not set them off...

And I'm sure a lot of folks reload with Federal primers without having any problems either. It might not be your 'brand' of primers. It's most likely a setup issue. Once you set it up correctly, you should enjoy your new 650XL. Good Luck

[mpeltier]

I recently set up a brand new XL650 and had a similar problem. Set up according to instructions and life seemed good.

Added a few primers, and first case (brand new Starline) to prime goes "BANG". After changing my underwear I proceeded to investigate and found the spring that puts pressure on the case at the prime station was not doing its job properly. a quick bend and it has been good for about 2000 trouble free rounds so far. Happily it was only the one primer. Hearing of ALL the primers going off is a bit worriesome.

I use Federal primers and with my SDB occasionaly would get a crimped NATO case and really crunch a primer. In thousands of rounds never had one go bang before.

It seems to take far less effort to seat primers with this machine than I was accustomed to and is easy to put too much pressure. A little time to get a feel for this is neccessary.

[c2d2]

Called Dillon about 6pm tonight. I (briefly) sat on hold longer than it took for the rep to tell me that standard policy in this situation is to send out an entire new primer assembly, process it and tell me it was on its way. He said to salvage any parts i could, but did not say anything about sending them back. No suggestions on causes or fixes, but said that if i encounter any problems with the new stuff to call them right away.

I wish every company was like that. Glad i took everyone's advice on what brand press to buy even after last night's impromptu fireworks.

I'm still heavily leaning towards the little metal case locator on the primer station as the primary culprit, especially after some of the replies here and info on other posts, so we'll be taking a very close look at that on the new parts and making sure there is sufficient pressure to keep the case in place.

Thanks for the replies; i'll update this once we get the parts and give it another go.

[c2d2]

I think you are trying to fix a symptom not the disease. Just because it was working well up to adding the primers it does not mean the primers are the issue.

Cases!?

What brand?

Military Crimp?

I suggest getting some new cases or cases from factory (non military or police) ammunition and try them. Sort and clean your cases properly, use case lube. If this does not help then I would look at the primer unit itself. Make sure all is well there. If the guys at the factory had a bad day and installed the incorrect primer plate / seater this will not help. I always check the plate before loading primers even with machine direct from Dillon. I have found two that were not correct.

Mostly once-fired, well-cleaned Winchester white box or Remington UMC. Primer seating was a mess from the get-go, regardless of case brand/type. I don't think its related to primer brand either, but instead to the cases not being properly located in the shell plate at this station. In fact, i was surprised at how deformed a primer could get without going off.

[buddy_fuentes]

Dillon is a top notch company and always helpful. They will do whatever is needed to get you up and running.

Sometimes in the eighties I bought a 550 and loaded many buckets of ammo on it (loaded over a 1,000 rounds this week on it). About five years ago I bought a 650 and have been using it extensively, too. It is a wonderful piece of equipment.

My son had a birthday and I have been loading his ammo for way too long. I decided to buy him a Square Deal from a local dealer. When he went to pick up the press he decided that he wanted a 650 instead of the SD. He paid the difference and I went to his house and set it up for him. Right away he started having problems. The handle wouldn't crank. I took the press apart and found several primers (Winchester) in the primer tray sideways and bent. I got it all straightened out and loaded a few rounds. He loaded a few rounds and had the same problem. I thought it was because of his inexperience, that he was having problems. I fixed the press again and set out to load a 100 rounds. Nope...same thing happened. It turns out that the little round primer tray had some buggers on the inside of the holes and was catching the primers and flipping them over. Dillon sent a new primer tray and the problem was solved. I also realigned the press because it seemed a little out of time.

Hope the new assembly helps. Check the primer tray (wheel) for burrs.

[Mark K]

I will add my 2 cents worth on this. One thing that I had to learn when I started, to eliminate primer seating problems (mostly crushed, only one detonation), was a timing issue on my part. When you bring the handle back up, you need to have just the slightest hesitation before continuing that small final push that seats the primer. Too fast/no hesitation, and the primer is not yet in position and will crush against the edge of the primer pocket. You can't just ram the handle up.

I then to think of the pause as the end of the total cycle, rather than the seating of the primer as the end. After the pause, I then bump the handle forward, seating the primer (and in my opinion shaking the powder system - helping make the dropped power more consistantly metered) and then basically on the rebound of the bump move the handle to the bottom. At the bottom is a slight bump as well - ensuring that I have fully re-sized the case, and ensuring that the powder measure has dropped all it's contents.

Just my opinion and process. It works for me.

Mark K.

[buddy_fuentes]

Mark, your primer should be aligned with the "pocket" of the brass. You may need to adjust the little "gizmo" (technical term) that keeps the brass pushed back into the shell plate. If that doesn't work...you should call Dillon and get an alignment tool and re-align your press.

Buddy

[IronEqualizer]

I have to agree with Mark. The rhythm at which I load seems to make a difference on how smooth things go. With an ever so slight hesitation before seating the primer and things work flawless.

AL

[el pres]

The little arm that keeps presure on the case at priming is adjustable for tension,

allen screw on top. Having loaded lots of 9mm and .233 I always hesitate at the primer up stroke once

I reach resistance to feel how its going in. Now I only use CCI primers which are supposed to be the hardest

and have crushed them into a smear or even flatened them out sidways with a detonation. You might want to

get a primer pocket reamer to run through the cases. I've had several batches of 9mm with a military crimp

from local police ranges

[kmitchl]

Check the alignment of the shell plate with the primer punch. The primer punch should be centered in the shell plate opening. Dillon will send you a free alignment tool, however, a calibrated eyeball will get you pretty close. The alignment tool is simply a rod with the OD a slip fit through the circular opening in the bottom of the shell plate and a concentric hole to accept the primer punch pin. One end is drilled for large primers and one end is drilled for small primers. The Indexer Block mounted to the left side of the press is used to adjust the alignment.

Follow the hints above and check the alignment and you should be able to load any brand of primers with no problems. The 650 doesn't respond to being strong armed very well. When you feel a little additional resistance stop and see what's causing it.

[c2d2]

The primer assembly arrived today, BUT, i probably should have opened the box before getting too excited. There was a primer assembly, but no follower rod, no magazine, and no alarm. I called Dillon to find out if perhaps they were shipped separately, but they said the magazine and follower were supposed to be in there and attributed the missing parts to having "some new [people] in the production dept that don't know what they're doing". I didn't ask about the alarm since mine seems fine, but i bet that should have been in there too. They are shipping the rod and magazine next day air so i should see them by Friday.

They guy also spent some time asking me about primer and case brand, and stated that WWB cases and Federal primers were probably the worst combination i could come up with. I explained a little more about the problem, and then he suggested it might be the little case locator tab adjustment.

I installed the new primer system (sans magazine and follower), which has a bit of play towards one side or the other until you tighten the 2 bolts that hold it in place. I seated it firmly towards one side to reduce any chance of it wandering. Anyway, when i started cycling the machine i noticed that the primer punch (seats the primers) was catching a bit on the edge of the holes in the primer disc which to me meant that the primer system was not well aligned. I loosened it up and seated it to the other side, which cured the problem and now the punch rises cleanly thru the holes without making any contact. This is something i would not have known to look for before, and probably either the punch or the primer disc would have worn, eventually eliminating the symptom but causing more potential problems.

Once i was happy with the primer feed assembly alignment i adjusted the station two locator tab using the tiny little allen screw inside the lower side of the primer feed assembly (which i never would have found without the directions). The locator arm was set way out on the new assembly, even worse than the original, so skipping this step almost certainly would have caused primer seating probs and could have even caused another detonation. The adjustment is simple and allows for a good deal of precision, but there is no "set" nut or screw so it seems there is potential for this setting to wander. As a result, i'll be checking this part setting frequently.

See the XL650 manual regarding this adjustment (page 39 on the PDF - http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/manuals.html ). There is also a sticker on the primer assembly warning that this adjustment must be made during caliber conversion, but it should probably advise to check it upon initial setup as well. I still think that little bugger is primarily responsible for all my woes.

The last two nights, however, i have made about 200 good rounds feeding the primers into station 2 by hand. I cycle the machine, remove the case at station 2, manually drop a primer into the station, use my fingernail to get it right-side-up if needed, seat the primer, remove the case and inspect it, put it back and repeat. The results have been great - i've only had 2 or 3 primers not seat properly. It surprised me how little force (virtually unnoticeable) it takes to seat a primer when everything is lined up well, and now i know what it should "feel" like. If you have to apply any pressure whatsoever to seat the primer you should probably stop and check things out.

Given the feedback (and my recent experiences), i think federal primers are slightly more prone to detonation as they are more sensitive, but if everything is cleaned, aligned, and working properly they should work just fine. Hopefully things will go as well or better once i get the missing parts.

Edited December 10, 2008 by c2d2

[98sr20ve]

Tonight was our inaugural session with the Dillon, having the Club MD and an IDPA Master (both experienced with Dillon equipment) come out to help us finish setup and fine tuning of the press so we could start production. (once again i'd like to thank the folks in our club for their willingness to embrace new shooters!) Initially all went well - fine tuning all the stations to recommended specs with relative ease. All the dies were set just right and it was time to move to full production.

Unfortunately, once we added live primers into the mix things got messy. We immediately started having primer seating problems, mashing or missing primers at least as often as we got well seated ones. It seemed that the cases at this station were not lining up properly or that the primer system was not indexing correctly. We kept working on it and watching closely to try and troubleshoot the problem with the primer seating. Then all of a sudden KABOOM!!!! My worst fear about reloading materialized itself before we could even produce 30 good rounds!

I know you are trying to be carefull. But in my experiance the fewer people present while reloading the better. I would suggest just one person familiar with the machine you are using. Honestly, I would suggest each person first sit down with the machine and the manual with no other help present. I find adding more people to a learnging situation does not make for better learning. It just adds to the confusion. You guys are all sharing a machine and someone is going to have to get it set up properly. But each person is going to need to learn how it's done and that requires working alone or with just one mentor. That mentor might best be the Dillon Tech Support number. No one can offer better advice in my opionion.

Edited December 11, 2008 by 98sr20ve

[ExtremeShot]

Welcome to the club. I got you beat though. I only got 25 rounds made on my brand new 650 before blowing myself up. That was about 3 or 4 years ago. My ears are still ringing. ....I accidentally let go of the handle on the down swing.

Darren