COF questions and rules

[lugnut]

Guys two interesting scenarios came up this week at a local match- let me know what you think should have happened:

1) Indoor low light stage:

START POSITION: Seated at table, back touching chair’s back with hands on Xs on table. Unloaded firearm and either 3 magazines or 4 speed loaders/moonclips (all loaded to division capacity) placed on the table. Flashlight placed on the table. No concealment is required.

STAGE PROCEDURE: On the start signal load your gun and take out the 4 threats in both tactical priority and tactical sequence with 3 shots each. All firing must be done from behind the table between the “X” marks on the table.

On the buzzer a shooter clicked their flashlight on (a large high power one) while it was laying on the table pointing down range. Shooter shot with two hands on the gun and never touched flashlight after.

Qustions: Is this legit? He got a procedural and was told it was almost an FTDR. The COF didn't say how the flashlight was to be used but this did sound like trying to gain an unfair advantage... Thought?

2) Skill drill:

START POSITION: At P1 facing down range, handgun and 2 ammunition carriers loaded with 6 rounds each. Concealment is not required.

STAGE PROCEDURE: This is a skill drill testing speed reloading, target evaluation and target transition. On the start signal, the first six rounds are fired at T1 and then the first speed reload is conducted. The first four shots after the reload (rounds 7, 8, 9 and 10) must be shot at T2-T5, only one shot on each target, shooters choice as to what order to engage T2-T5. Rounds 11 and 12 are shot at T1. A second speed reload is conducted and the last six shots are fired at T1. Of the 14 shots fired at T1, 6 must be head shots. It is the shooter’s choice as to when to engage the heads.

Question: A shooter was having major jams during the use of all 3 magazines. Only about 4 out of 6 of each magazine were used. At the end of the 3rd magazine- with several missing shots the shooter pulled a 4th magazine out of his pocket and finished the remaining shots. Should this shooter get a procedural for using more than the allowed "3" magazines? If so- do you remove the best points from all the shots fired from the 4th magazine? It was limited vickers and he didn't use more than the required shots but several rounds did come from a 4th mag.

Edited November 30, 2008 by lugnut

[Greg Bell]

1) Rule book doesn't cover the use of flashlights and neither did the COF description. No penalty

2) 1 proceedural and a coaching session to explain that a 4th magazine cannot be used in a COF

[Bill Nesbitt]

Stage 1: No penalty. Laying the flashlight down away from yourself is actually a good tactical move.

Stage 2: That T-1 must be a bad one to need 14 rounds. Who designs this stuff?? Unfortunately the shooter gets a penalty for using the 4th magazine and the stage designer needs a lesson on stage design.

[Steve J]

1) Rule book doesn't cover the use of flashlights and neither did the COF description. No penalty

2) 1 proceedural and a coaching session to explain that a 4th magazine cannot be used in a COF

+1 Greg is correct.

p.s. the coaching session should include getting equipment that works.

[lugnut]

Thanks for the response- I'm not 100% in agreement on the low light stage to be honest with you. On the limited vickers skill drill- I agree a PE should have been added... I just wasn't sure if the shots from the 4th mag should have counted. I SO'd the 2nd stage... someone else on the low light fwiw.

See below for some idea on the Low Light stage:

C 1. Competitors will not attempt to circumvent or

compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage either by the

use of inappropriate devices, equipment or techniques. This is

the Failure To Do Right rule.

I underlined the section in the IDPA rulebook that I think might be relevant here.

The stage rationale was to test the skills of shooting, reloading and holding

the flashlight at the same time. Some clarification of the COF would eliminate this next time for sure.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Nik Habicht]

Thanks for the response- I'm not 100% in agreement on the low light stage to be honest with you. On the limited vickers skill drill- I agree a PE should have been added... I just wasn't sure if the shots from the 4th mag should have counted. I SO'd the 2nd stage... someone else on the low light fwiw.

See below for some idea on the Low Light stage:

C 1. Competitors will not attempt to circumvent or

compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage either by the

use of inappropriate devices, equipment or techniques. This is

the Failure To Do Right rule.

I underlined the section in the IDPA rulebook that I think might be relevant here.

The stage rationale was to test the skills of shooting, reloading and holding

the flashlight at the same time. Some clarification of the COF would eliminate this next time for sure.

Thanks for the feedback.

Huh? What spirit or rationale? The shooter shot the stage by the light provided from the flashlight, right? He didn't turn on the ceiling lights? The stage description didn't require that he carry or hold the flashlight in a hand? What's the issue --- did he solve the problem better/faster than everyone else?

[lugnut]

Huh? What spirit or rationale? The shooter shot the stage by the light provided from the flashlight, right? He didn't turn on the ceiling lights? The stage description didn't require that he carry or hold the flashlight in a hand? What's the issue --- did he solve the problem better/faster than everyone else?

I guess what I wasn't so clear about is the "proper" use of the flashlight in this stage or any other any stage for that matter- maybe there is none. Can you stick it in your belt? Put it in your mouth? (I know you can't put a magazine in your mouth) Throw it on the ground? . I guess I never considered these before.

It's not an issue for me personally, but the SO and shooter were not in agreement on this so I solicited feedback from folks on this forum.

Edited November 30, 2008 by lugnut

[Steve J]

Huh? What spirit or rationale? The shooter shot the stage by the light provided from the flashlight, right? He didn't turn on the ceiling lights? The stage description didn't require that he carry or hold the flashlight in a hand? What's the issue --- did he solve the problem better/faster than everyone else?

I guess what I wasn't so clear about is the "proper" use of the flashlight in this stage or any other any stage for that matter- maybe there is none. Can you stick it in your belt? Put it in your mouth? (I know you can't put a magazine in your mouth) Throw it on the ground? . I guess I never considered these before.

It's not an issue for me personally, but the SO and shooter were not in agreement on this so I solicited feedback from folks on this forum.

Use of a tactical white light is not covered by IDPA rules, except that you can not shoot with a light mounted to your gun. This HAS to be spelled out in the COF and/or by the match director so that every shooter understands what is expected and what will or will not incur a penalty. If that didn't happen - shame on them.

[lugnut]

Thanks for responses gentlemen. I appreciate it. After 2 years I'm still finding new things to figure out... and that doesn't even include my shooting abilities. LOL.

[kdmoore]

Realize that there are a LOT of techniques and tactics involving lights. Some say they help the bad guy, so if you use them keep them far from you, others espouse holding them in different spots, and those selections maybe influenced by night sights. Dropping a light is actually used a lot in competition, and might make good sense if you don't anticipate much movement.

Realize that dictating keeping the light "in hand" will still allow some to hold it loosely while using a second light, dangle it because it isn't very dark, or dangle a bright multidirectional light.

Personally, I think you should stay away from trying to force someone to use a particular technique. If you want the shooter to be mobile with the light then you need to create a stage that requires that.

We had a dark house in the middle of a monster shotgun match, and because we entered from mid day field into it, it was VERY dark. There were a lot of techniques used (I dropped my flashlight on the ground), most had weapons mounted lights, but several solutions caught my eye. Hat mounted lights (can be attached to the bill of a cap) and the idea of a couple of glow sticks thrown in were clever (IMO). Just food for thought...

[Joe D]

The flashlight stage issues can be easily avoided with a properly written stage description.

I don't like Limited Vickers/Standards stages. We don't use them very often, if at all.

[lugnut]

The flashlight stage issues can be easily avoided with a properly written stage description.

Point taken and I certainly agree. Unfortunately the designer didn't take this into account and we'll make sure this is done in my stages for sure.

I don't like Limited Vickers/Standards stages. We don't use them very often, if at all.

Hmm. I usually am ok with one skill drill per match. This one was... a little different for sure.

[RobMoore]

I don't know why this technique would be looked down on. Creative thinking should be encouraged. If it works, it advances our sport. What if stage designers started saying "You're not allowed to use the surefire technique, or back of the hands together. You will hold the light with your weak hand and the gun with your strong hand"?

If you want a shooter to hold the light or incorporate the flashlight into their grip, make it advantageous for them to do so, like moving and shooting.

Writing descriptions to keep your shooter "inside the box" of what you want holds us all back.

[nmipsc]

second Stage should be called the Hokey Pokey, Put your left foot in, put your left foot out and shake it all about.... what a memory course

[Greg Bell]

.... what a memory course

I hate that kind of crap, and do not feel it has anyplace in IDPA.

[RobMoore]

Yeah, I got to the second sentence of stage 2 and stopped. Not worth the effort. Bad course.

[lugnut]

.... what a memory course

I hate that kind of crap, and do not feel it has anyplace in IDPA.

I would agree it was a tad odd. It was a first time MD and he was given some suggestions and help by another SO on many things. But not too much guidance to completely discourage the new MD.

Edited December 2, 2008 by lugnut

[Joe D]

Vickers/Standards stages are just plain boring to me. If I wanted to stand in one place and shoot I would do GSSF or Bullseye.

[Jim Watson]

Agreed, this is supposed to be an ACTION shoot, but...

The search for novelty in every stage of every match leads to some ridiculous compexity, mind games, and memory challenges. I always liked to mess with people by putting up a CoF they THOUGHT they had seen before but with enough changes in range and angle to call for a different approach.

[lugnut]

After shooting IDPA for 2 plus years now I find it very challenging to come up with new designs. Everytime someone tries to come up with something decent- often times it has to be "tweaked" or there are too many rules to conform to that make it too restrictive. I appreciate the effort that volunteers put into it so I try not to get too frustrated with bad COFs.

[rvb]

Stage 1:

wth is with the tac seq AND tac priority? 1 ea close-to-far then back?? assuming no cover to 'pie'?

agree with the rest, no Flashlight rules broken since there are no flashlight rules.

the 'spirit' of the game is also to test techniques. you don't PE someone for using differnt shoot stance than you, do you?

As for stage 2, where to begin...

speed reloads? in idpa? wha...!??

pg 79, "NOTE: There is NO provision for the speed reload in IDPA competition."

also, from page 50 of the rule book:

"However, mixing the

number of hits required on targets within the same string leads to

procedural penalties and should be discouraged. The same goes

for mixing strings requiring a 2-2-2 engagement with a 1-1-2-1-1

type engagement."

I want to shoot, not do the hokey pokey. It's a PE trap.

shooter gets 1 PE for using extra mag.

-rvb

Edited December 2, 2008 by rvb

[lugnut]

rvb-

Yes the stage 1 was tactical sequence with priority. Near to far, one shot each before reengaging. No cover was available.

Stage 2 didn't have speed reloads- each mag was loaded to 6 rounds- > slide lock. It was a mental game for sure.

[Duane Thomas]

What's the issue --- did he solve the problem better/faster than everyone else?

I think that's it. Also, I've noticed in the past that a lot of people can deal with it when you outshoot them; however they absolutely come unglued when you outthink them.

[Duane Thomas]

Personally, I think you should stay away from trying to force someone to use a particular technique.

Absolutely. If a particular technique works....it works. Maybe something could be learned from that.

[Duane Thomas]

Hmm. I usually am ok with one skill drill per match.

I tend to love standards exercises, because they severely penalize those people who haven't put in the time to master the basic skills. At the same time they reward those who have. Of course, that's why most people hate them.