Is Scoring Sacrsanct?

[Patrick Sweeney]

OK, this one comes out of a conversation I had with some big shooters and big wigs at the FGN. Briefly: The Production shooters shoot fast but controlled because they can't afford non-A hits. The Revolver shooters couldn't afford a miss. But the Lim-10 guys were almost out of control. A C or a D hit when shooting major doesn't hurt much when you're screaming along at Warp 9.2

Can we close the gap between Major and Minor? Or should we make non-A hits more of a penalty at Major?

Before we get all bogged down in the "history of Major and Minor" and the supposed difference between them, let me give you background: I've been considering the real-life uses of the different calibers, In Detroit, as real carry guns, since 1976. I have also discussed this personally with Moses himself. I'm not interested in real-life "they all fall to hardball" arguments. The real-life perfomance of the various calibers is much more dependant on bullet construction (and placement, something we're trying to encourage) than bullet diameter.

Proposal: We change the scoring values to something like:

Major 5-3-3-2

Minor 5-3-3-1

Or:

Major 5-3-3-2

Minor 5-3-3-0

So that misses off the "A" zone hurt more. The Minor zero would be a no-points non-penalized hit.

The other solution, much less elegant, and a whole lot more hassle, would be two A zones, one larger for Minor, and one smaller for Major. The big problem is that is it counter-intuitive, and counter to real life. Thus, I am not at all enthused aobut it.

Whadaya think?

[spook]

I dunno. I think it's interesting to put minor back on the track like that. It leaves you the choice again. Capacity and quick follow up shots vs. guaranteed scoring. This has always been the philosophy behind the whole major minor thing to my knowledge, but shooting minor in everything but production has been suicide with the recent scoring methods. Interesting idea.

[jhgtyre]

I would suggest;

Major 5 4 4 2

Minor 5 4 3 1

based upon the idea that a B zone hit with any of the allowed calibers more or less equal but when you start moving to the outer scoring areas the effectivness of the minor loads is reduced.

-ld

[Chriss Grube]

Let's face it this is a game and has about as much to do with real life as video games. All handguns are poor choices for a gunfight. I've seen people survive head shots with .38's and chest shoots with 9,45 and .44's. It's a game and the rules are the rules. Everybody is trying to slow down the big guns. Won't happen. They will still shoot just as fast because they don't drop that many points anyway. It might change the lower classes where you can get away with being fast and dropping points to still win. Make the PF something reasonable like 145-150 and shoot what you brought. Best gun/shooter combo wins. Makes it easier on equipment and women and kids starting in the sport. I know I'll hear the whining about wimp loads and manly man 175 PF of the old days but in the real world more people are killed with a .22 or 9 than rest combined.

[Flexmoney]

Good timing here Patrick.

If we don't change anything else...we ought to make Bravo-Minor worth 4 points. (I am sure only Minor shooters will understand.) I did some hit factor calculations in the distant past...making Bravo-Minor worth 4 points works out.

I don't see much wrong with the Charlie points as they are now. At the tip-top levels...you are back to shooting Alpha hits or finishing lower (Major or Minor). At the mid-levels, the C-hit points seem to work out.

Delta hits are death. No need to change them.

[Loves2Shoot]

There wouldn't be much of a point to shooting major if A's and C's scored the same in major/minor. I just can't think of a reason to shoot major if that was the way you scored it. You might end up making major obsolete, more like cowboy action shooting, where full power isn't rewarded. The IPSC motto is power, speed and accuracy. I don't like it, although I would be forced to shoot it if you changed the scoring.

You will never get the people who shoot recklessly to stop shooting that way my changing the point values unless you go to the extreme like IDPA did, and then they will still probably just blaze away.

The 4 for a b would make sense.

[Zak Smith]

With regard to terminal effects, you're going to be hard-pressed to find a high-performing 9mm JHP that ends up with a PF less than about 140. I have compiled the FBI-protocol ballistic gel test data here: http://www.demigod.org/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php

Sorted by "wound volume": http://www.demigod.org/~zak/firearms/fbi-p...php?sort=grade1

The top 9mm contenders are the Win Ranger Talon 147gr (149 PF) and the CCI/Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P (152 PF). If you go down the list, you do find some more in the 130PF range, but in 9mm it seems like, as tested in ballistic gel, a 124gr at 1200fps is real effective, and speeding it up to over 1350fps (in .357SIG) doesn't increase the gel results at all over the 124/1200.

-z

[Jon Merricks]

I with Kyle on this one. If there has to be a change let B minor = 4 and leave everything else alone.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Hmmm, interesting. A B=4 for Minor makes those tight, no-shoot plastered targets a whole lot different. The Major has to slow down, while the Minor has a lot more target still open.

Too bad we started at such low points values. Otherwise we could adjust more easily, for example:

Current;

Major 10-8-8-4

Minor 10-6-6-2

We could;

Major 10-7-7-3

Minor 10-6-6-2

I guess I keep trying to lower Major from the realization that a handgun is not much of a tool in a real-life encounter. We'd all rather have bigger tools, so why raise the Minor when we can lower the Major?

[Flexmoney]

Yeah, if we went with 10 point Alpha, instead of a 5 point Alpha, then we would have some "half-point" space to do some tweaking. That might actually work. No reason not too...other than "this is how we've always done it".

As jhgtyre posted:

Major 5 4 4 2

Minor 5 4 3 1

Just raise Bravo-Minor to 4. It works out at the matches.

[vluc]

B=4...gotta love the idea!

There should be encouragement and reward for those shots versus it being the same as a "C" hit. Or...we adopt IDPA scoring for teh upper target area and get rid of bravo all together....

[spook]

Just switch to the IPSC classic type targets. They're more fun 'cause they're smaller

They don't have a B-zone.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Personally, I'm not crazy about changing the scoring values at all but, if we were to consider anything, then surely the logical step would be to adjust all Minor hits, viz:

Major: 5 - 4 - 4 - 2 ................ (afterthought: or 5 - 4 - 3 - 2)

Minor: 4 - 3 - 3 - 1 ................ (afterthought: or 4 - 3 - 2 - 1)

Since Minor has less power, why award the same points as an A hit shot with a Major load?

A centre hit in the "upper B Zone" is still harder in Major, right?

[BerettaRacer]

I'd definetly like to even out the scoring between maj/min. In production it doesn't matter as all scored the same, but in the other divisions it's not competitive. When I shoot in open if I slow down to get the hits I lose on time, if I speed up to competitive speed I lose on points. Give me a level playing field and I could be competitive in any division.

In a steel challange with no maj/min scoring and mag capacity is not an issue I can hold my own against most and its shooter quality that is the determining factor, not equipment.

[spook]

Ahh, to hell with major/minor. Everyone can put a max of 18 rounds in their standard mags and PF is 140 for all calibers LOL

[vluc]

Darth, I feel like I'm being relegated to the special section !

pretty soon I might as well shoot .22 since mine has "less power"

[ErikW]

Assuming the idea is to close the gap between Major and Minor, in those divisions which allow both...

I think Major C hits are too valuable. I'm already on record as B hits aren't valuable enough for the time lost in making them. D hits are in reality lucky misses and should be treated as such.

The name of the game is points per second. The speed difference between Minor/Major is not as great as the point difference between them, thus the scoring system is flawed. (Again, if the idea is put Major and Minor on equal footing.)

Honestly, it would be easier to change the targets than to change the scoring system. Hey, somebody has already done that! Hellooo, Classic target!

[vluc]

Honestly, it would be easier to change the targets than to change the scoring system. Hey, somebody has already done that! Hellooo, Classic target!

A simple solution....would be interesting. one of our local clubs has been using the classic target more and more in some stages. A pleasant diversion, and it really does mess with some folks minds....

[Flexmoney]

BerettaRacer,

Unless I am not understanding you correctly...then, yes...major is tougher to shoot than minor. That is kinda the point. It takes me a lot more work..and I really have to be on my game to shoot my gun well at Major. Shooting Minor I can smoke along pretty well. (in USPSA and Steel challenge)

Vince,

I don't think the shooting is too much different between Major and Minor when it comes to getting the hits...it is a little tougher to get tuned into the Major recoil.

I did some comparison testing with regards to hit factor. I figured the "break-even" splits and tranition times for getting 2-Alphas vs. 2-Charlies. I don't have the numbers handy, but the hit factors worked out to being about a wash for what I had considered the average B shooter. If they took the time for 2-Alpha, or if they speed up for 2-Charlie...same hit factor (in Major). In Minor...it was certainly worth going for 2-Alpha.

On the Bravo-Minor. 4 points is the way to go. Let me know how to get you behind this. (Keep Bravo-Major a 4 too.)

[Skywalker]

I don't think I'd like to change the scoring system at all.

It's more than a feeling.

The equilibrium among "Diligentia, Vis Celeritasque", is going to be broken if we are going to reward almost all the shots (because almost all shooters tend not to shoot Ds, then the vast majority of shots are As and Cs) with the same points regardless of Major/Minor PF.

It's simply not fair: an easier to shoot, less recoiling caliber is going to be rewarded with the same points as more powerful and more difficult to control in fast double-taps caliber.

If we follow this route, we are going to thrash the idea of balance among different virtues: IPSC would then become a Diligentia/Celeritas affaire, no more Vis.

[vluc]

A moment of clarity...as I peeled some potatoes.

Scoring values make no difference in production since we shoot against each other, all at the same level. Regardless of the values, there is nothing gained by any of us in production.

If we choose to shoot minor in a major world (open, ltd or l10) we know up front what we are getting into, and accept the consequences.

My moment of zen....

[Flexmoney]

My moment of zen came when shooting XMAS in Production.

I was using the match to test a new load in 9mm. (Yes, the result is my fault for not knowing my guns zero!)

On the T2 head shot, I had a nice six shot group...dead center, between the Chrlie and the Alpha. One bullet touched the Alpha line, so that target was score with 5-Bravo. That is down 10 points. That ten points is the difference between GM run and an 85%.

Again, my fault for not knowing my zero. That experience woke me up a bit though (I never gave much thought to it before), and I strated to do some hit factor calculations.

Our game is about points per second. Minor/Bravo = 4 works out.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Let me state what the British would call "the bleedin' obvious".

1. Our official motto is "DVC", where three elements (Accuracy, Power & Speed) should be evaluated equally.

2. Accuracy & Speed are largely (but not entirely) determined by the competitor's actions.

3. Power is determined solely by the competitor's ammunition, and we have two broad power levels, namely Minor and Major.

4. It therefore follows that if a Charlie or Delta hit on a Paper Target is rated at fewer points when shot with a Minor PF round, an Alpha hit on the same Paper Target should also be rated fewer points when shot with a Minor PF round.

5. When it comes to Metal Targets, these fall faster (and more forgivingly) when hit with a Major PF round than when hit with a Minor PF round (i.e higher power - less accuracy required, more speed possible)

Remember we're not measuring wound ballistics, stopping power or the relative defensive benefits of "9mm VS 45ACP" - that's something for the gun magazines to bring up every other month. And we're not dealing with gut feelings either.

No matter how you cut it, and irrespective of who is behind the gun, the fact remains that, all else being equal, an Alpha hit is more difficult with a Major PF round than with a Minor PF round, and we should recognise that fact across all scoring zones.

It's called Physics.

[THS]

Vince,

surely you aren't advocating minor being scored something like 4,4,3,1 Are you?

I'd argue that the first shot is no different wheter you are shooting major or minor; but that second one can be way tougher. Maybe that's why I like production, I sure feel FASTER, even if the C's are killing me it sure looks and sounds cool!

I really like the new classic target for creating a new emphasis in the "D" part of DVC. If you can't be accurate you'll pay dearly on the classic. heck, it also does away with the Bravo 4 discussion too

If you're going for the overall win with a production or other minor scored gun the B/C's and D's are killers, but when compared in division (Production) everyone is scored the same anyway.

Later,

Tom

[Vince Pinto]

Tom,

Actually I prefer we leave the scoring values alone but, if anything was to change, the most logical system would be for Minor hits to score 1 point less than the Major equivalent across the board, at least in respect of Paper Targets.

With Metal Targets, both Major and Minor should have the same point value, because the difference between the two power levels is rewarded by the power level (i.e. Metal Targets fall faster and more forgivingly when hit with a Major PF round).