Movement is what matters

[sincityshooter]

I had the luxury of shooting opposite of the Super Squad during the entire Nationals which gave me tons of time to check out their skills.  What did I notice?  They don't shoot all that fast... the transition times are impressive, but not unattainable... accuracy is definitely there... TGO fell on his back.

So, what makes them so great?  Movement!!!  I would venture to say that during most courses 70% of the score can be directly contributed to movement alone.  I also noticed that most of the top shooters would rather get to a position and shoot standing 2-3 targets compared to rolling through and not stopping.  The first and last step is the most impressive.  Even if there is only 6-8 feet or 20y of distance to cover the first step is the same.  Explosive is the best word I can describe.  

Now I have some new priorities in my practice sessions and realize that this sport has more to do with not shooting than actually pulling the trigger.  

Any thoughts?

[Ron Ankeny]

I agree, movement is essential and wasted motion is a killer. Still, I think those guys can shoot. I work on movement along with other shooting skills.

I am nearing fifty, in crappy physical condition, and I am neither explosive nor fast on my feet. I need every edge that I can get. That edge comes from actualizing trust, calling my shots, being ready to shoot the instant I get there, and so on. The top shooters have the total package and I envy them. I'll continue to work on movement because it is so vital, but it is, "...not how fast you get there, it is how fast you get there ready to shoot." I think it was Rob Leatham who said that to Ron Avery.

[titandriver]

  I think Ron is absolutely correct, you still have to shoot. I smoked both stage twelve (10.8) and stage fourteen (6.9) dropping LOTS of points in the process. Barnhart ran stage twelve in 10.3 and only dropped TWO points! How'd he do that? Travis ran stage fourteen in 7.0 down only three points --- awesome!

 I'm an old fart at 52 but I can still move pretty good, it's the droppin' only a couple of points that's got the big dogs so far ahead of the rest of us!

  So yeah, learn to move LOTS faster but don't forget to get those points!

[BSeevers]

Movement is what I picked up on that I need to work on but did notice they dropped 3 or 4 points on a stage to win it most of the time.

A Master said on my squad"these are the best pistol shooters of any time" I agree. The key is to shoot fast accurately.

[ong45]

I agree with y'all, smothness of movement is also my number one priority. Don't be fooled though ,as much as they kick our ass on movement, they outdistance us as much if not more on pure shooting skill.

James

[38supPat]

Unfortunatly, movement has become a large part of IPSC...one of the reasons it is starting to SUCK!!!

It used to be about SHOOTING. If you want to see how great the top guys are, watch them on a simple speed shoot, one that requires gun handling and shooting skill.

Thats where TGO, Todd, Jerry and the rest really shine.

Or better yet watch them at Bianchi, The Masters or The Steel Challenge. These guys are great because they can shoot. They've had to learn to move to keep up with the trend in IPSC towards, low skill, high round count/run and gun type stages. I've seen lesser shooters keep up with them on field courses because even though their shooting skill is not up to par, they are quicker on their feet.

These are the same types that will whine if they are presented with any kind of difficult shot.

Kind of makes you wonder what would have happened to Bullseye if the shooters complained that it was too difficult and that the target should be moved closer.

[sincityshooter]

I never said these guys can't shoot.  These top shooters shoot a lot of A's... they have been doing this for a long time.  However, I watched them the whole Nationals and rarely ever saw them pull the trigger fast... I would guess that most splits were around .20 and very rarely did I see shots fired below .17. So, are they shooting more A's because the rest of the field is shooting too fast?  I don't know about the rest of you, but when I feel I need to step it up the speed comes with sloppy hits from pulling the trigger too fast.  A better plan would be pick up the speed in movement.  I noticed a definite pause on each target and a noticeable follow through after the 2nd shot.  It's not about shooting .15 splits and sub .20 transitions.  Yes, that does come into play at times, but not all that often.  I love this sport.  If it's all about accuracy that you are after then IDPA, Steel Challenge, The Masters, or Bianchi Cup is the way to go.  I'm staying here.

[Ron Ankeny]

sincityshooter:

Brian Enos talks about movement quite a bit in the IPSC Secrets tapes. As we view tapes of top shooters, it is pretty obvious that the likes of Avery, Barnhart, etc. really bust ass from area to area. But, there are other top shooters who are much more fluid and move like a gazelle. Our own host, Brian Enos is very fluid. I can't bust ass so I am going for fluid.

I also had the opportunity to talk to Ron Avery a bit about the importance of movement. Avery came right out and told me that some of the stuff we see top shooters pull off, like shooting as they enter an area while the gun is still being extended and their lower body is still in motion, or shooting as they are leaning and stepping to leave, can only be accomplished after you have reached the level where you can make and call the shot, without doubt, on demand, day in and day out.

As for accuracy, I shot several of the sports that you talk about. Being able to shoot straight made the transition to IPSC fairly easy. It is interesting to note that several of the top shooters put so much emphasis on accuracy. I can't tell you how many times I have heard top dogs say that the inability to shoot a group and to call shots with certainty, is what causes so many shooters to stall out in low to middle master class.  There is an interesting thread on this forum about accuracy. In that thread TGO more or less told me (and others) that I am full of crap when I made some comments about shooting 3-4 inch groups at 25 yards. Leatham talks about being able to shoot A zone sized groups. The difference is that I am talking about working up loads or sighting in and Leatham is talking about being able to shoot the A-zone in the heat of the moment against the clock. There is a big difference and I think it would be nice to be able to do both.

There is an intersting thread on the forum that answers your question about splits. The big dogs have the ability to make transitions that approximate their splits on certain arrays. I stopped shooting .14 splits and I now shoot splits around .20 to .22 at 10 yards (limited gun). This change relieved a lot of tension and allowed me to reduce transition times by 50 per cent. I'll take .20 splits and .20 transitions any day over .14 splits and .40 transitions.

I don't know what class you shoot in. For all I know you are a Master or a Grand Master. I suppose it is none of my business. But most of us are mere mortals, working our way up, with the majority of us in C and B class. For you, the answer might be to work on movement. If you can shoot well and feel the need to work on raw speed and foot work, then do it.  I think most of us still need to work on mastering the very heart of the sport, shooting skills along with an eye toward being more efficient with our motion.

Like Pat pointed out, the face of IPSC is changing. Dozens of targets at arm's length with 25 yard dashes between the arrays. I think that type of shooting sucks and is boring. I like hard cover, no shoots, little poppers, 8 inch plates, and so on. Tight shots, long shots...that's shooting...

[sincityshooter]

   Ron, I think you are misunderstanding my judgement.  First off, I'm what might be considered a "low" Master class shooter (a lot lower in the Nationals but hopefully not for long).  You mentioned how the top shooters "pull it off" when getting into and out of positions.  That's tough to do, but you will notice that when they leave a position, although the body starts to leave the gun stays on target.  It's as simple as calling your shot.  They always have enough time to get off a 3rd shot before leaving the port/position.  

   So, I guess I'm still defending the HUGE importance of movement.  You mentioned that most of the everyday forum shooters are "mere mortals".  I'm definitely a mortal.  In this sport, most if not all shooters have the accuracy required, it's the speed that's the envy of D-M class shooters.  I'll use Todd J as an example.  I'm sure he can shoot .20 splits on a 15-20y target with all A's all day long... take a C class open shooter.  He/She should be able to shoot all A's at that range all day... the difference would be the splits.  Experience will get you a little faster and more comfortable calling shots.  

My point is that yes, you have to be able to shoot:  accuracy and calling your shots.  However, there's tons of time to make up on movement.  Shooting a speed that will guarantee mostly A's, but moving with a strong sense of urgency will beat the crap out of most shooters that try to shoot too fast.  Agree?  

   When it comes to pure shooting skills, it's unbelieveable how good the top dogs are.  However, I noticed that no matter how awesome they are in a speed shoot, I'm not that far behind.  Example:  Jerry B shoots a 80 point speed shoot in 6.8 seconds down 3.  Most of the time I would be around 7.8 seconds down 5.  Assuming he wins the stage, I'm 12 match points behind (I'm happy with that).  Now take a 140 point field course that he finishes in 14 seconds down 6.  Even though I'm keeping up on the trigger speed and the draw, I'm lagging behind at 17 seconds down 6.  I just lost 25 match points with a good run.  I find that movement can get a lot of match points without ever pulling the trigger faster.  I know these shooters have been practing and perfecting their movement for years and I will probably never compare, however if I can get my shot off .3 earlier from position A to B over a course of fire I'll be closing the gap and moving up the standings.  

   Fluid shooters look very impressive.  Travis T has what I consider the best blend of explosiveness and fluidness.  He is still extremely fast getting into a position and leaving a position, but he has the appearance of floating.  I tend to compare the explosiveness to racquetball.  Which is a good reason for me to dig out the racquet.  

   Brian or Travis, do you have any comments?  Is this making any sense to anyone?

[BSeevers]

Makes complete sense to me. Its what I got out of the Nationals. I was 2 squads back so I watched them a lot. I can shoot faster than many of them but see the off shooting time and movement was where I need work and they excel. The difference are subtle and .5 sec can be a lifetime when you try to shave it off. They are still very accurate.

I am talking about small movements also. Its not all 25 yards dashes. On the 18 round courses I lose at least 1 sec to movement waste and the them being able to shoot while moving quicker.

[JFD]

Speaking as a shooter who is fairly new to USPSA, I agree that movement is the real key to butt kicking scores.

While I can hold my own and threaten all but the local big dogs in speed stages, their ability to move at the speed of light with no wasted movement puts me in my place in any field course.

I'm lucky in that my local club only has one stage that typically uses boxes, and they are no more than 10 yards apart.  The other 2 are run-n-guns, another is a straight up speed stage at close range due to bay size, and the last is the classifier.

Of course a shooter who can't hit the "A" zone has little hope no matter how fast they may be.

[Ron Ankeny]

Sincityshooter:

I was playing the devil's advocate for us fat guys and C class shooters. I kind of thought you were saying that the ability to just bust ass from box to box is the only thing going. We are on the same page and I agree with you 99.9 per cent.

I don't move fast and I never will. I wasn't an athlete in my younger days and I am not one now. When I move with the greatest sense of urgency, it looks like a lumbering jog. I have even been called a Keystone cop in slow motion.

Life just isn't fair and some folks are just faster than others. As a slow of foot shooter, I need to shoot smarter. There is more to this game than just getting to the next box by sprinting and that is where I concentrate my efforts.

No one knows better than I the importance of moving quickly because the inability to do that is why I lose on long field courses. Still, I routinely thump the younger guys by eliminating wasted motion, shooting the targets in an efficient order, avoiding brain farts and so on.  The really great shooters can do it all.

One of the other forum members posted somewhere on this forum about comparing ourselves to world class athletic shooters vs. comparing ourselves to "shooters". I think he mentioned Valdez as a shooter and someone like Jerry Barnhart as the athletic shooter. I can't remember the thread. For your purposes, you probably should watch the fast guys and duplicate what they do, if you are physically able. I need to look elsewhere for speed and I think maybe that's where we part company.

(Edited by Ron Ankeny at 1:49 pm on Sep. 2, 2002)

[xcount]

I once heard Todd Jarrett say he often treats a field course (especially the "3 targets here, 4 targets there, 4 targets over yonder" type) as a series of speed shoots with running in between.

[benos]

I posted this somewhere... long ago... Just for fun, The Great One and I timed just about a whole match's worth of shooters - from Ds to GMs - moving from box to box one day. We timed them from when they visibly started to move when leaving to when they touched inside the next box. We were fairly surprised to realize that most covered the distance in very similar times. Leaving us to conclude that the time is made up shooting while leaving, and shooting, or being ready to shoot, while entering, or setting up. The secret to winning at IPSC lies in calling your shots at all times and at all speeds; it does not lie in moving quickly. This is not to say, however, that the top guys don't haul ass from box  to box. It's just that they do everything quickly - and DELIBERATELY.

be

[bird]

My humble observations have led me to agree with sincityshooter's.

It seems to me that the top dawgs take their time shooting and do everything non-shooting very quick and smooth.

(like flowing water)

I guess that you can only go as "fast" as you call your shots.

Brian

In your study of the D-GM shooters and their movements you failed to mention how often the shooters missed their target or shot C's and D's.

(points down and/or penalities).

I for one have looked very smooth and fast  while totally missing targets or at the very least failed to get all A hits.

I am quick, but my accuracy sometimes has trouble catching up...lol

Shoot deliberate and move quick is where my thinking is.

Please Educate me further as I am a bit confused.

No disrespect or flames intended..

Please teach me how to fly better Brian...

bird

(Edited by bird at 7:28 pm on Sep. 3, 2002)

[Duane Thomas]

"I once heard Todd Jarrett say he often treats a field course (especially the "3 targets here, 4 targets there, 4 targets over yonder" type) as a series of speed shoots with running in between."

It's worth noting that Todd Jarrett was a track star in school - his event was the 550 - and he still moves like a track star. Waiting for the buzzer he looks a spring ready pop. And this guy can go from zero to 60 in about .002 second.

[sincityshooter]

BE, Thanks for your thoughts and wisdom.  Without a doubt it doesn't matter how fast you are if you can't leave with a good shot and enter a position with a solid stance and a good shot.  I think the confidence, awareness, and accuracy that the top shooters have enable the quickness they possess.  If you are confident with your shots while leaving a position, your mind will be 100% focused on leaving and entering the next shooting position.  For now I'm working on accuracy and leaving/entering positions the fastest and most stable way possible.  

[Patrick Sweeney]

Brian reminded me of my experiment at the Steel Challenge back in the early '90s.  I followed the SS and recorded their times to the first shot on every run.  (The timer was displayed, and you could quickly read the first shot before the second time replaced it.)

Guess how many of the top shooters consistently had first shot times under 1.20 seconds?  Two, Jerry Barnhart and Jethro Dionisio.  (No surprise on which two.)

Top shooters with first shot times 1.25 to 1.30 seconds?  Huh?  Then I noticed the real pattern in the data: They Never Missed.  In the SS, a dozen or so shooters, seven stages and five draws each,  (over 400 draws) there were like three times a second shot was needed on the first plate.

Calling the shot, getting the hit.  That's the "secret" and the rest is refinement.

[Ron Ankeny]

bird:

I have never had the opportunity to watch a match with a whole squad of GM shooters in it. Hell, I have never even shot in a major match. However, I have had the chance to shoot with a few top flight shooters shoulder to shoulder and I have had the benefit of instruction from a couple of "Top 16" shooters.

When you get the chance, shoot a little 16-24 round field course with the likes of Ron Avery or Tom Stidham (a relatively unknown GM). Then review your times and their times very closely. In particular, compare your target transition/aquisition times with a GM. I think you will see that a GM, while shooting "deliberately", will sustain an incredible rate of fire from array to array  across the board while getting the hits on the target faces. It's really cool.

You will also see that a GM has a fast time from the last shot fired on an array to the first shot fired on the next array. Part of that savings in time does indeed come from raw horse power between boxes. But from my observations, the majority of the time savings comes from leaving a box with confidence while you are shooting and being prepared to shoot the very instant you enter the next shooting box/area.

The single biggest improvement in my shooting (field courses) has come from countless hours of practice figuring out which target to take first when I get to an area and which target to take last as I leave. That, along with shooting while lifting a leg to step, or just leaning as I go, has shaved a considerable amount of time from my scores. I can't tell you how many hours I have spent stepping into a box from every concievable angle while presenting the pistol to the target. There is no better feeling than having your sights perfectly aligned on a piece of steel as you step into a box and having to wait until you are "legal" to pull the trigger.

[shred]

Something I noticed at the RGNs (which was almost all tight shots), was that I needed to program in 'move fast' when it was needed to get someplace else, or I'd be way off the pace. Sometimes it was only a couple steps, but it made a big difference in some of the stages. Could be a trick-of-the-day, but I foresee some video review in my future.

Moving box-to-box and setting up on targets seems a bit different-- getting there ready to shoot is key and it's complicated, but if you know you've got 6 steps before you even need to get ready ("index on the rutabega"), make 'em fast ones.

[benos]

bird,

I didn't mention the hits because we didn't care about that at the time. We already knew where the "problem" was, we were just interested in how much difference there was in movement time between the speedsters and the "slowersters." I remember we were very surprised to see such small time differences, considering various skill and fitness levels.

Yea Pat,

When I'm in the match, I could care less what my first shot time is. That stuff's for practice.

be

[bonedaddy]

      Movement is a distraction designed to carry us away from the shooting for a while.  Swingers are a distraction, as are soft cover, drop turners, disappearing targets, ect.  

      The distractions pose a question.  How much quicker can one shooter return to the shooting compared to another shooter facing the same challenges?  (The disractions are part of what makes the game interesting.)    

   We make a mistake if we choose to feel resentment for a particular type of challenge.  We should not mentally surrender to the challenge of the course, by resenting something about it.  (Yeah, I know you're short, fat, slow, and old.)    Resentment over anything places us at a distinct disadvantage to a guy or gal who is happy as hell that the targets are small and distant, its half a football field between boxes, and its raining too hard to see.     The  most successful shooters just deal with the distraction and get back to the shooting faster.   Now get out there and win one for the Gipper!

              And drive it like you stole it!

         

[Duane Thomas]

Out at the WA IDPA Champs we had one stage where you had eight seconds to take down four pieces of steel, two standard poppers and two US poppers, set up at 35 yards. You wouldn't believe how many people, LONG before they had to fire the stage, as soon as they saw it, were whining non-stop about how hard it was, how lousy they'd do. And they were right - about the "how lousy they'd do" part, anyway. Talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy. I just shook my head and said, "This is really not that hard." Even though I'd never shot poppers at 35 yards, I knew I could do it. And I was right. (Admittedly I dropped the fourth one 1/100ths second over time - now that takes timing - ah well!)

It helps to have a skill level sufficient to do stuff like this, but even if they throw something at you you've never done before, don't program yourself for failure. Keep your mouth shut, cultivate a positive mental attitude, and drive on.

[bonedaddy]

   That sounds like quite a stage, Duane!   Were the pieces of steel you mentioned 8" plates by chance? (I want to set this one up in the back yard.)  

     BTW, how many people managed to clean it?  

[Flexmoney]

bonedaddy,

Re: distractions

Awesome post!  You sounded like Ghost Dog on that one.