Lead Count

[G-ManBart]

I agree... but for each individual.. there is no good way of determining how much lead came from what... For example... I reload, sort brass, tumble my brass and sift it, shot indoors and outdoors, etc, etc. How would I know that x percentage of MY exposure came from indoor shooting?

Regardless- I think we can agree that "most" comes from inhalation... and that becomes more of an issue when much of your shooting is indoors. But I do know shooters that have lead levels in the 20s that don't shoot indoors at all...

Absolutely...no real way to break it down as to how much came from what. Certainly, it's not easy to tell, but most of the stories I've heard of folks who don't shoot indoors, but have high counts all were doing something like smoking while shooting, or eating without washing their hands. Well maybe that and gnawing on old paint chips...lol

[G-ManBart]

Got new bloodwork done on Friday and it's down to 30 (from 37), so that's a good sign for only being 5 weeks!

[Corey]

whats it cost to check lead levels? im wondering if i should check mine. i havent shot indoors much, but i do use moly lead bullets.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

whats it cost to check lead levels? im wondering if i should check mine. i havent shot indoors much, but i do use moly lead bullets.

\

When you have a physical, ask your Doc to add it to the blood work. Mine are checked every 6 months. As an add on it ran about $175 to the Insurance.

Bananas have been proven to help lower levels. . 3 a day. I also used an all natural heavy metal cleanse with success. Went from 35 to 10 in 6 months. I shot indoors this winter and went from 10 to 25 again. That will be my last indoor season.. Just not worth it

[Corey]

whats it cost to check lead levels? im wondering if i should check mine. i havent shot indoors much, but i do use moly lead bullets.

\

When you have a physical, ask your Doc to add it to the blood work. Mine are checked every 6 months. As an add on it ran about $175 to the Insurance.

Bananas have been proven to help lower levels. . 3 a day. I also used an all natural heavy metal cleanse with success. Went from 35 to 10 in 6 months. I shot indoors this winter and went from 10 to 25 again. That will be my last indoor season.. Just not worth it

I havent been to the dr in close to 8 years. i just dont get sick and i guess at age 25 i dont need regular checkups very often. maybe i should go for this tho. thanks for the topic

[Nik Habicht]

Since this clearly turned into a discussion, which is forbidden by Hate Forum rules, and since it's useful, moved to a legal place.....

[JThompson]

Update on my lead level...January it was 40, 6 months later it is now down to 25.

Previously, I was shooting indoors with poor ventilation about 4 days per week and about 250 rounds each day. I now only shoot indoors once a month where I help run the match. I

I also now make sure to wash my hands after shooting...something else I didn't do before. I've also started wearing latex gloves when sorting brass.

I'll check again in 6 months and report back.

Oh yeah...I was also getting low-grade headaches just before I had it checked the first time. I never get headaches and now that it has gone down, I'm back to not getting them.

[kaiserb]

whats it cost to check lead levels? im wondering if i should check mine. i havent shot indoors much, but i do use moly lead bullets.

I am on Aetna and it was no cost to have a lead test in conjunction with my semi-annual cholesterol check .

[kaiserb]

Holy Crap! I never knew that this sort of thing could even be an issue. Ive always washed my hands after shooting, cleaning and reloading, but never even gave a thought to inhalation hazzards. Also, does pb absorb through the skin? Ive noticed that on leangthy reloading sessions my thumb, index and middle finger on my left hand (the one that puts the bullet on) are all black. Wow! Good thing I work in the med group here. I think Ill go down and ask one of the docs to put a pb test in for me. Then when my buddy in the lab draws my blood Im going to highly recommend he get one too (he and I both shoot a lot togeather). Someone should pin this thread as a warning for shooters who may just not know about the lead hazzard.

-Mike

You will never know for sure how much lead comes from where.... Ive scoured the web and can't find anything definitive. ...

Lead is mainly absorbed through the gastrointestinal system, regardless of exposure method (inhalation, ingestion, or direct contact).

The best place to find the most info about a particular substance, in this case lead, is the MSDS sheet from the manufacturer. Section 11 gives details about toxic effects and exposure methods: http://www.sciencela...?msdsId=9927204

Section 11: Toxicological Information

Routes of Entry: Absorbed through skin. Inhalation. Ingestion.

Toxicity to Animals:

LD50: Not available.

LC50: Not available.

Chronic Effects on Humans:

CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: Classified A3 (Proven for animal.) by ACGIH, 2B (Possible for human.) by IARC.

May cause damage to the following organs: blood, kidneys, central nervous system (CNS).

Other Toxic Effects on Humans: Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation.

Special Remarks on Toxicity to Animals: Not available.

Special Remarks on Chronic Effects on Humans: Not available.

Special Remarks on other Toxic Effects on Humans:

Acute Potential:

Skin:

Lead metal granules or dust: May cause skin irritation by mechanical action.

Lead metal foil, shot or sheets: Not likely to cause skin irritation

Eyes:

Lead metal granules or dust: Can irritate eyes by mechanical action.

Lead metal foil, shot or sheets: No hazard. Will not cause eye irritation.

Inhalation:

In an industrial setting, exposure to lead mainly occurs from inhalation of dust or fumes.

Lead dust or fumes: Can irritate the upper respiratory tract (nose, throat) as well as the bronchi and lungs by mechanical action. Lead dust can be absorbed through the respiratory system. However, inhaled lead does not accumulate in the lungs. All of an inhaled dose is eventually absorbed or transferred to the gastrointestinal tract. Inhalation effects of exposure to fumes or dust of inorganic lead may not develop quickly. Symptoms may include metallic taste, chest pain, decreased physical fitness, fatigue, sleep disturbance, headache, irritability, reduces memory, mood and personality changes, aching bones and muscles, constipation, abdominal pains, decreasing appetite. Inhalation of large amounts may lead to ataxia, delirium, convulsions/seizures, coma, and death. Lead metal foil, shot, or sheets: Not an inhalation hazard unless metal is heated. If metal is heated, fumes will be released. Inhalation of these fumes may cause "fume metal fever", which is characterized by flu-like symptoms. Symptoms may include metallic taste, fever, nausea, vomiting, chills, cough, weakness, chest pain, generalized muscle pain/aches, and increased white blood cell count.

Ingestion:

Lead metal granules or dust: The symptoms of lead poisoning include abdominal pain or cramps (lead cholic), spasms, nausea, vomiting, headache, muscle weakness, hallucinations, distorted perceptions, "lead line" on the gums, metallic taste, loss of appetite, insomnia, dizziness and other symptoms similar to that of inhalation. Acute poisoning may result in high lead levels in the blood and urine, shock, coma and death in extreme cases. Lead metal foil, shot or sheets: Not an ingestion hazard for usual industrial handling.

Edited April 20, 2010 by kaiserb

[Bear23]

Lead levels are from Ionic lead. not from the bullets. do wash your hands though! Handling Pb is not really the problem, it doesn't soak thru your skin! don't smoke, chew, drink or eat or touch your face! I don't shoot indoors.

Primers are the big hazards. Lead styphanate when ignited leads to ionic Pb. Handling dirty cases is next.. Just keep your hands clean and do your brass sorting and cleaning outside.

I wash my hands at least every 15 minutes when sorting and after every clean batch. Not eating or drinking, until i have washed my hands and face and changed clothes.

[lugnut]

Bananas have been proven to help lower levels. . 3 a day. I also used an all natural heavy metal cleanse with success. Went from 35 to 10 in 6 months. I shot indoors this winter and went from 10 to 25 again. That will be my last indoor season.. Just not worth it

3 bananas a day! And you are still losing weight? lol. Seriously though... per your advice I've used some supplements but lead levels can and do drop a bunch on their own. Mine went from 56 to 40 in just over a month... no change in diet at all... just no shooting. 3 month check up is due now... but I'm almost too chicken to go again as I've been shooting a bunch outdoors.

[lugnut]

Well boys I wanted to share some good news today! I retested again after 3 months and I'm down to 18!! 18 from 56 in about 4 months... I'm very happy. I have avoided as much indoor shooting as I could... the most significant indoor shooting was at the Indoor Nats this year... other than an IDPA stage or two- no indoor shooting at all. I have still been shooting 2-3 times/week outdoors for the last couple of months so I'm psyched! That includes helping SO matches for several hours/weekend.

I'm guessing that staying away from indoor shooting was the biggest variable... I'm sure the steps below helped as well...

I still use a respirator when separating tumbled brass outdoors only.

I don't use nitrile gloves when reloading or handling brass- it was too uncomfortable.

I DO wash like a crazy man with DLead soap when I reload or after shooting.

I take my shoes/clothes off and shower after shooting.

For the last couple months I've been taking Vitamin B Complex/C supplements.

For the last couple month I've taken Heavy Metal Detox- Nature's Sunshine.

I'm so happy I asked my Dr for my lead test... my headaches are all but gone now! They were so bad I was days away from seeing a Neurologist about them.

If you haven't done it yet- get your lead levels checked!!!

[Supermoto]

Well boys I wanted to share some good news today! I retested again after 3 months and I'm down to 18!! 18 from 56 in about 4 months... I'm very happy. I have avoided as much indoor shooting as I could... the most significant indoor shooting was at the Indoor Nats this year... other than an IDPA stage or two- no indoor shooting at all. I have still been shooting 2-3 times/week outdoors for the last couple of months so I'm psyched! That includes helping SO matches for several hours/weekend.

I'm guessing that staying away from indoor shooting was the biggest variable... I'm sure the steps below helped as well...

I still use a respirator when separating tumbled brass outdoors only.

I don't use nitrile gloves when reloading or handling brass- it was too uncomfortable.

I DO wash like a crazy man with DLead soap when I reload or after shooting.

I take my shoes/clothes off and shower after shooting.

For the last couple months I've been taking Vitamin B Complex/C supplements.

For the last couple month I've taken Heavy Metal Detox- Nature's Sunshine.

I'm so happy I asked my Dr for my lead test... my headaches are all but gone now! They were so bad I was days away from seeing a Neurologist about them.

If you haven't done it yet- get your lead levels checked!!!

That's great news Dave

[lugnut]

Thanks Mike. One other funny thing... My Doctor called me today about the lead levels. He really wanted me to still not shoot at all till the level come down to single digits. He wanted me to give it another couple months before I picked it up again.

My levels did come down from 56 to 18 but I have been shooting a lot lately still! I couldn't tell him... he would have been pissed. I changed my shooting habits (NO indoor shooting predominantly) but I've been shooting outside like I used to! More rounds that before probably... Oh man he wouldn't be happy. I feel like a druggie hiding my habits.

[Steve_P]

Thanks Mike. One other funny thing... My Doctor called me today about the lead levels. He really wanted me to still not shoot at all till the level come down to single digits. He wanted me to give it another couple months before I picked it up again.

My levels did come down from 56 to 18 but I have been shooting a lot lately still! I couldn't tell him... he would have been pissed. I changed my shooting habits (NO indoor shooting predominantly) but I've been shooting outside like I used to! More rounds that before probably... Oh man he wouldn't be happy. I feel like a druggie hiding my habits.

Hi, My name is Lugnut, and I have a problem....

[beginner shooter]

Thanks Mike. One other funny thing... My Doctor called me today about the lead levels. He really wanted me to still not shoot at all till the level come down to single digits. He wanted me to give it another couple months before I picked it up again.

My levels did come down from 56 to 18 but I have been shooting a lot lately still! I couldn't tell him... he would have been pissed. I changed my shooting habits (NO indoor shooting predominantly) but I've been shooting outside like I used to! More rounds that before probably... Oh man he wouldn't be happy. I feel like a druggie hiding my habits.

My levels came back at 20 (mind you Ive only been doing this for about 2.5 months) and my doc told me the same thing. Im pretty sure he knew completely cutting shooting out wasn't going to happen when I said "but there's a classifier this weekend and I HAVE to go".

Anywho, I have been more proactive about my lead exposure. Now I wash my hands everytime Im going to eat something at the range (use to just open my cooler and eat my sandwich between stages without giving it a second thought ) and I wear latex gloves when I reload my ammo and clean my guns. Im due to have another lead test first Monday in July. Hopefully the numbers go down.

[cliffwalsh]

Got mine back today. 27. I really thought it would be higher. I need to do a better job with the tumbler. I know I get some exposure there.

[Mat Price]

posted this on another topic but thought i would post it here as well....

OK guys let me shed some light on this. I spend allot of time in an indoor range over 40 hours a week. lots of that time is dedicated to sweeping. when not at the indoor range I am in my reload room working. I was dumb and even knew better ( I went to nursing school and spent most of time as a Truama R.N.) but I did take any precautions such as use a resp. or nitrile gloves ect... in a 4 month period I noticed that my stomach hurt allot, I had frequent head aches and then a few weeks ago I had barely any short term memory. I have always shot allot of rifle but never shot much indoors or spent anytime @ an indoor range.

my latest lead level is 68 mics/Dl... because I am not having life threatening symptoms right now chelation therapy is not advised by the doc. I have had to remove myself from 100% of lead hazards I normally come in contact with. guys this happened over a 4 month period.

THE GOOD NEWS

blood levels are ONLY an indicator of a recent exposure and not total body burden. To find total body burden requires a special Xray called x ray florescence. That is the only way to to determine whether your exposure is chronic or acute. Mine is an accute case of high constant levels of exposure without taking any precautions. I am lucky once my blood level returns to normal I will have no lasting effects.

GET YOUR LEVELS CHECKED it isn't the amount time exposed it is the rate at which the exposure occurs. We have an indoor steel match once a week where 40 + shooters come out I generally RO/call the match with all my other indoor duties as well as my own practice time. I will from now on take every precaution known to man.

Mat

[Patrick Sweeney]

Just to make you guys all jealous and such, my number. Wait, first the round count;

Over one million, shooting for close on to 45 years. Many years of high-volume shooting, a decade of indoors multiple league winters, reloading for 35+ years, and teaching on all kinds of ranges.

My BLL: 6. In the years of getting lead levels checked (the State I teach for requires annual testing) my highest number has been 8.

No food, drinks, etc. on the range. No smoking. Washing done religiously, and with warm water. (No, the lead does not get "into your pores" that "open when you use warm water" honest to god, I had an LEO instructor tell me that) Clothes get tossed into the wash after a range day, and shoes or boots get hosed off when i leave the range.

This stuff only gets in if you ingest or inhale it. It doesn't hunt you down and force itself through your skin.

[lugnut]

Patrick seems like you shot is some well ventilated indoor ranges and used some good common sense.

However I think each of us, even if we were exposed to the same lead conditions, will absorb lead differently. I'm not sure if has to do with diets or other chemical issues. I don't think the volume of shooting/reloading you do, but the conditions surrounding these events.

Clearly- keeping clean and not eating/smoking while shooting are obvious. However all indoor ranges are not created equal.

[Patrick Sweeney]

"All indoor ranges are not created equal." I'll say.

When our club was experimenting with the idea of indoor winter matches, we tried range after range. One we tried, well, it was a kindness to call it spartan. The "range" was the back half of an industrial building that had a dirtpile up against the rear wall. By the end of the match, we were coughing up clods, and sneezing out dirtballs.

Another club also used it, and the next match we had was a "partially dark" match. the morons had not taken care to place their poppers, and the first shooter through broke half the florescent tubes with his splatter.

We quickly voted to move on. In the end, we found that the winter range rental ate up any increased revenues gained from the extra attendance. All it did was pump up our nationals slots figures, but that was the real goal anyway.

As for the PPC range, the steel angle plates diverted bullets down into sand. Now and then, we'd start to get bouncebacks, from the lead ingots hammered into the sand . (PPC, being double-action bullseye, meant all the bullets were directed towards a common spot.) When that happened, someone would get the trustees to come out and clean it up. Even when "clean" the range had a layer of lead and powder residue dust on the floor.

[digby7]

Wooddog

Limit the number of .22 rimfire you shoot indoors.

Can anyone go into more detail on the above? I'm curious as to whether shooting a .22 rimfire conversion is worse for your lead levels than shooting .45 or 9mm indoors?

[Patrick Sweeney]

I could see .22LR being a big contributor;

The bullets are all-lead, soft and lubed with a wax, so you'll get lots of burnt and friction-created lead dust.

It runs at the same pressure as a .38 Spl+P, so you don't get a break there.

Each has a full compliment of priming compound, so full-value for your shooting there.

And, since it kicks so little, and costs so little, you'll shoot more. For a time/cost session of 50-100 rounds of centerfire indoors, you could easily do 200+ of .22LR.

Indoors, shooting is shooting, regardless of the caliber used.

[digby7]

So ive been shooting LARGE quantities of federal bulk pack, copper plated .22 lr

Ive got a marvel conversion for my 1911 with a compensator on it so most of the gasses vent straight up as opposed to my normal 45 where the gasses vent straight out and possibly back in towards me depending on the ventilation setup.

I was thinking I was better off shooting .22 indoors as it produces much less gas than .45 and the comp vents everything up. If i'm shooting copper plated .22, is the danger really just in the increased round count and time at the range from being able to go through 500 .22 in the same time I might go through 250 .45?

Got tested after 6 months of shooting, around 24k rounds, mostly indoors and am at a lead level of 25. probably 18-19k rounds of .45/9mm and the remainder .22

25 seems high to me so I ordered a respirator, looking at taking calcium and vitamin D and looking at changing clothes at the range instead of tracking all that home with me. Wash regularly with d-lead, also looking into dlead wipes.

I'll be happy when I can get it into the single digits while still going through a ton of rounds.

[High Lord Gomer]

The copper "plating" on those isn't very thick at all. Also, since (I have heard) a significant portion of the airborn lead is from the primers when firing centerfire I assume that is also true with rimfire.

I thought I had heard of lead-free .22s but this article says no:

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/Impossible-22-rimfire/