Anyone build a 300 Whisper / 300 Fireball / 300-221 AR upper?

[chp5]

Anyone build a 300 Whisper / 300 Fireball / 300-221 AR upper?

So it seems like it’s called 300 Whisper and 300 Fireball and 300-221. Anyway, has anyone built an AR upper in this caliber?

I’m interested in building one and suppressing it. Some questions:

• Any required changes to the lower (buffers, etc)? What buffer should you use?

• Any problems you’ve seen with using standard AR mags? Is your set up reliable?

• Do you use an adjustable gas block?

• Whose barrel are you using? What barrel length is optimal for this round? I’d like to use a 16” because I want to put a can on it and not make it unwieldy. I can also SBR it, but does a < 16” denigrate round performance?

• What brass do you use to reload?

• Any other drops of knowledge appreciated.

Thanks!

[Dan Sierpina]

A shooter on my squad at last year's multigun match at West Point was shooting one. I think his was a 16" barrel.

The Whisper was designed to use heavy bullets at low velocity, for the suppressor, SMK 220+ grains. Brass normally used is .221 Fireball, you can probably use .223, but, it might need reaming besides shortening.

This isn't much, but it's a start.

Good luck with the project.

[ken hebert]

Anyone build a 300 Whisper / 300 Fireball / 300-221 AR upper?

So it seems like it’s called 300 Whisper and 300 Fireball and 300-221. Anyway, has anyone built an AR upper in this caliber?

I’m interested in building one and suppressing it. Some questions:

• Any required changes to the lower (buffers, etc)? What buffer should you use?

• Any problems you’ve seen with using standard AR mags? Is your set up reliable?

• Do you use an adjustable gas block?

• Whose barrel are you using? What barrel length is optimal for this round? I’d like to use a 16” because I want to put a can on it and not make it unwieldy. I can also SBR it, but does a < 16” denigrate round performance?

• What brass do you use to reload?

• Any other drops of knowledge appreciated.

Thanks!

#1 to get mine to cycle reliably with subsonics I used an 85 gram buffer.

#2 standard GI alum mags work fine for me, PMags not so, but I load a little long.

#3 have an adj gas tube, won't do that again. next time it's a Noveske switch block or one that a 300whisper forum member sells.

#4 M1S barrel, but won't do that again either. Had to ream my chamber just to get a round in. No longer than 16" is needed. 1:8 twist. Mine is currently 16", but i did just file for my SBR on it and it will be 9.5". Using a YHM Phantom can.

#5 using once fired Fed .223

#6 check out http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=27 for some good reading on the subject.

I like mine, accuracy with the M1S barrel is so-so. If I had it to do over again in an AR I would wait for a Noveske barrel. Now I'min the process of building one on a Rem 700 action. The AR SBR will honestly be a play toy, MOA+ within 100 yards.

[TRUBL]

Talk to....and OBEY.....Mr. Zak Smith, he knows

[ShooterSteve]

I am looking at this same set up. We have a deer over population problem, and while it is legal to hunt here, some of the neighbors can be persnickity. A can on a 300 Whisper will let me do what I need to do and not bother anyone. Check out the AR uppers from SSK. They are the people who invented the Whisper, and while I haven't handled any of their top ends, I know their other products are top notch. I may be going this route, so if anyone has any feedback on the SSK top end please let me know, whether positive or negative. Thanks

Edited September 10, 2008 by shooter steve

[Bear1142]

Cy,

Give me a call. I built one a while ago and plan on doing another one soon.

Erik

[Flexmoney]

Here is one on YouTube. Gotta love it when the impact is louder than the shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPVloZ8Ubng...feature=related

Suppressed 300 Whisper and 6.8 SPC

(sorry for the drift)

[chp5]

Here is one on YouTube. Gotta love it when the impact is louder than the shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPVloZ8Ubng...feature=related

(sorry for the drift)

That's not a drift - that's what I'm talkin bout

Erik - I'll ping you later this week. Thx.

[320pf]

Anyone build a 300 Whisper / 300 Fireball / 300-221 AR upper?

So it seems like it’s called 300 Whisper and 300 Fireball and 300-221. Anyway, has anyone built an AR upper in this caliber?

I’m interested in building one and suppressing it. Some questions:

Yes, I have built about six of them... And I am the shooter that Dan Sierpina is referring to in his post. My brother and I both shot 300-221 fireballs this spring at the Superstition Mountain mystery 3-gun in AZ. My brother did pretty well, I have some issues with my shot gun. Oh well next year.

I found that the best way to shoot the 300-221 fireball in 3-guns matches is to bring two different loads to the match. For all the close in stages, I shoot sub-sonic loads. I like 165g at 1050-1080 fps. This make the minimum pf (150) and has about 1-2 ft-lbs of recoil compared to about 4-to-5 ft.-lbs of recoil for a identical rifle in 5.56mm. For the long range stages, I shoot 125g bullets at 2230-2250 fps. The secret is to sight the rifle in to be 4-inches high at 100 yrds for the super-sonic loads. The super-sonic loads zero cross is at 30 yrds. and 215 yrds. This load is 10-inches low at 300... so if you hold a high 12 0'clock position on a 10-inch plate... it is pretty easy to make the hit.

The sub-sonic load starts about 2-inches below point of aim (POA) at the muzzle. The POA is right on at ~35-40 yrds. By 80 yrds the bullet is about 4-inchs below POA at 80 yrds.

• Any required changes to the lower (buffers, etc)? What buffer should you use?

If you set up your rifle correctly, No. I use a standard rifle buffer and spring in both of my lowers and can use either with my 300-221 fireball uppers.

• Any problems you’ve seen with using standard AR mags? Is your set up reliable?

I use standard unmodified mags and yes the are reliable.

• Do you use an adjustable gas block?

No. An adjustable gas block is not required if you set up your rifle correctly

• Whose barrel are you using? What barrel length is optimal for this round? I’d like to use a 16” because I want to put a can on it and not make it unwieldy. I can also SBR it, but does a < 16” denigrate round performance?

I have a Noveske 16-inch barrel, gas port in the pistol position. Three Olympic Arms barrels One has the gas port in the "Olympic" pistol postion (~0.5-inches closer to the breach than the standard pistol position). The other has the gas port in the carbine position and the third has gas port in both positions and can be configure either way... Depending on which port you plug with a set screw.

All of my rifles shoot 1 MOA or better. The Noveske barrel will shoot 0.6 in groups at 100 yrds.

With a 10-inch barrel you will lose about 200-to-250 fps. With my 16-inch barrels I can push 175 and 180 gr bullets to ~1850 fps. This make major pf. I can push 165-168 gr bullets to about 1950-2000 fps. But I have not had time to really check how reliable this load is.

• What brass do you use to reload?

I have tried reformed 221 fireball brass but I have found that 223 brass works well and only requires cutting the brass to length (~1.36-inches) and then run it through the resizer die.

I hope this helps and good luck

320pf

Edited September 11, 2008 by 320pf

[cas]

The "cheap" way for your deer control would be to build a Contender Carbine.

I have a .300 Whisper AR on a Cav Arms lower laying right next to me on the floor. Yet I have no real answers for you. It's been there for months and I still haven't fired a round.

I had a M1S upper in .300 Fireball a few years back, though I was quite unimpressed with the quality. I think I shot it a time or two before I sent it down the road.

I've had 3-4 Contender pistol barrels in it, and one carbine barrel, though I mostly shoot 125Gr ballistic tips, super sonic. I use necked up 221 Fireball brass, but then I don't lose it either. Even with the first AR upper, I adjusted the gas so it wouldn't eject.

[ShooterSteve]

Cas, a contender pistol in the whisper is actually on the short list. It is that if I buy the pistol, and probably have to buy a barrel from SSK, the optic,(I already have one for the AR), and mounts, I will have a bunch in the gun. I will still have to purchase the can and pay Uncle Sam his taxes. I know this project won't be cheap but this bill adds up quick. I guess I was looking at an easy way, just call them and buy an upper. Then I do the reloading thing. The carbine is an option I will check into as I haven't looked at that option yet. Hey 320pf, is the mag capacity the same, it seems like it would be, but I'm just checking. Thanks a bunch.

[ken hebert]

Try Fox Ridge Outfitters for the Contender barrel, they are TC's pro shop.

Mag capacity is the same for me when using aluminum mags. I don't have good luck with Pmags due to my load length/bullet choice. About 10 or 11 in and things go south.

[cas]

There are a LOT more sources for T/C barrels in .300 Whisper than there are AR barrels.

My extra ugly step barrel carbine. I sort of regret selling the barrel, as I never got to play with it all that much. But it was one of those times where SOMETHING had to go, and that was the something.

(note the extra Tasco Optima dot, 10 years before it was trendy. lol)

Edited September 11, 2008 by cas

[D.carden]

We had a guy on our squad at the '07 SMMG match that had a 300 Whisper.......It puked on about 8 of 10 stages.......!!!!

[320pf]

We had a guy on our squad at the '07 SMMG match that had a 300 Whisper.......It puked on about 8 of 10 stages.......!!!!

That was me the 2007 SMMG and it did not "puke" on 8 of 10 stages. First, the 2007 SMMG was my first outing with the 300-221 fireball. The load that I work up for that match was 20 gr H100 pushing a 125 gr speer TNT at 2350. That load ran fine in NY at ~ sealevel and 35-45 deg. F. The same load at 2100 ft and 80-90 deg. F. blew primers after about 3-to-5 shots.

It puked on my first long range stages and boy did it puke. It blew the primer and pulled the rim off the case and left the case stuck in the chamber. major puke on that stage.

I shot the rest of the first day using my sub-sonic ammo and the gun ran fine with the sub-sonic ammo on all of the close rifle stages. I did not shoot all that well because I was trying to figure out if there was a way to fix my ammo problem.

One the second day I keeped the super-sonic ammo on ice but that did not work. I tried the ammo again on another stage and the load blew primers stuck cases etc.. again Puke number 2. The gas blowing back into the upper receiver heats up the ammo pretty fast. So I had to shoot the rest of the match using my sub-sonic ammo of which I just had enough to shoot the whole match with. Live and learn. So the next long range stage was not pretty.

I later found out that H110 is pretty temp sensitive. So I changed powders to W296* and dropped the load to 19 gr and I get 2230 fps from this load and no blown primers.

After some more serious load testing and development. My brother came out from CA and we shot a local match here in NY/NJ with the 300-221 fireball rifles and they both ran perfect. Then in 2008 my brother and I shot 300-221 fireball rifles at the 2008 SMMG and both rifles ran fine there as well!

(*I have been told that W296 and H110 are the basically the same powders but W296 shoots tighter groups in all of my 300-221 rifles)

Yes shooting a wildcat cartridge in a semi-auto is a bit more difficult. Most of the heavy lifting for using a 300-221 fireball in 3-gun match has been done and now the rifle run fine.

If you what to see two of the rifles that I have built check here:

http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/photopos...o.php?photo=367

320pf

Edited September 12, 2008 by 320pf

[Flexmoney]

I've seen a load of 223's puke and puke and puke. I'm sure we all have.

[kellyn]

Not to be a wet blanket but what advantage does a Whisper have for practical rifle competition? Can it make major with a bullet that will have a flat enough trajectory to engage distance targets?

[ken hebert]

As an owner of a .300 whisper my $0.02 answer is: it's a want-to thing. I don't run mine in 3-gun, but then again I don't want to. If shooting a rifle division here in the states was merely about what you had to have to get by, then I guess that a limited gun in .223/5.56 would be all that you would see in a match, right? I believe that we see the variety of weapons at a match, from .223 minors to .308 heavy metal to various wildcat entries.

If I were to look at it in a strictly competative light, then I'd have to reason that the .300 Whisper could be a viable contender 1) it uses .223 mags which are plentiful, 2) in a 20" barrel with something like a 155gn @ 2075fps, 3) a variety of good brakes are available. So, if you are willing to put a fair ammount of work into the project then you could possibly end up with a easy to handle rifle making major. Only drawback is brass.

But, we've already covered this same subject several times with valuable input from many of you. I'm merely retyping what has already been said from those of you who have valuable insight into the inside dynamics of professional rifle competition.

[Flexmoney]

I don't know that the opening poster was asking about this project for 3-gun'n?

Sub-sonic...with a can.

For the purposes that I think he has in mind, I'd wonder if a 10mm (or even a 40) would work? Some of the loads (bullet weight and velocity) are very similar. The BC isn't there though, right? How far out do you need to get before that makes a real difference?

[ken hebert]

To that point we need chp5 to chime back in with what he wants out of the project.

IMO, 100 yds on in the 10mm would do the trick. Out to 300 or so yards then it's the .300's ballpark.

[Dan Sierpina]

To that point we need chp5 to chime back in with what he wants out of the project.

IMO, 100 yds on in the 10mm would do the trick. Out to 300 or so yards then it's the .300's ballpark.

Seeing how he mentioned the suppressor, he just might want a toy that is quiet, for no other reason than having one. The Whisper was designed with silence in mind.

[chp5]

I don't know that the opening poster was asking about this project for 3-gun'n?

Sub-sonic...with a can.

For the purposes that I think he has in mind, I'd wonder if a 10mm (or even a 40) would work? Some of the loads (bullet weight and velocity) are very similar. The BC isn't there though, right? How far out do you need to get before that makes a real difference?

Exactly correct. Maybe Kelly's question was to 320pf who has shot it in competition . . .

The neat thing about the 300 Whisper is that the only change required to use it is a barrel change. Even .223 mags will work. Also, the caliber is perfect for suppression. The .40 will require a whole new upper and mags - but does have a the benefit of a common round that I already reload. Ballistically, I think that the Whisper is superior to the .40.

Funny, but there's not a lot of .40 rifle cans out there. Based on some reading, guys are using .30 cans that are boared out. Also, simply because a round a round is sub-sonic, it doesn't necessarily mean that it suppresses well.

See FM's first vid link. The 300 Whisper was developed for the purposes of suppression.

[stgdz]

There has been a interesting little thread going on at ar15

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&...21&t=382761

its a wildcat cartridge called 7.62x40, uses 308 bullets in reformed 223 cases.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&...21&t=382761

Anyways here is some data

Average Performance Data

16” Barrel

110 Hornady V-MAX =2,575 fps

110 Sierra Varmint = 2,550 fps

125 Speer TNT = 2,450 fps

125 Nosler BTBT = 2,450 fps

123 Lapua FMJ = 2,475

20” Barrel

110 Hornady V-MAX =2,700 fps

110 Sierra Varmint = 2,675 fps

125 Speer TNT = 2,600 fps

125 Nosler BTBT = 2,575 fps

123 Lapua FMJ = 2,625 fps

[cas]

The 30/223 was popular for many years in silhouette shooting, looks like they just shortened it enough to fit in the AR mag. The 6 & 6.5 Whisper always intrigued me, but it was cost prohibitive at the time. (looking back I've wasted much more money on much sillier things)

[chp5]

There has been a interesting little thread going on at ar15

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&...21&t=382761

its a wildcat cartridge called 7.62x40, uses 308 bullets in reformed 223 cases.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&...21&t=382761

Anyways here is some data

Average Performance Data

16” Barrel

110 Hornady V-MAX =2,575 fps

110 Sierra Varmint = 2,550 fps

125 Speer TNT = 2,450 fps

125 Nosler BTBT = 2,450 fps

123 Lapua FMJ = 2,475

20” Barrel

110 Hornady V-MAX =2,700 fps

110 Sierra Varmint = 2,675 fps

125 Speer TNT = 2,600 fps

125 Nosler BTBT = 2,575 fps

123 Lapua FMJ = 2,625 fps

Interesting. I won't suppress well though