POLL: Should a gun that's Production Legal be illegal...

[Nik Habicht]

Mark,

if you have a specific gun in mind --- well, there's arbitration. Fill out the arb form, pay the fee, make your case.....

Yup, there was a lot of discussion when the XD first came out ---- and its legality changed almost monthly for a while at least in IPSC, possibly in USPSA too, though my memory's a little foggy on the details. Ultimately, IIRC, the BOD decided that the XD more closely fit the Production principles (DA, DAO, or Safe Action variants) than it fit into Single Action principles (cocked and locked)....

I've shot a few Bianchi matches with my Glock ---- its near stock trigger didn't hold me back --- and Bianchi is probably as accuracy intensive as it gets in the practical shooting sports....

[sfinney]

In my mind, the "double action" defined part of the rule is to determine if a pistol design should be allowed in the division or not.

Once it was voted in, its basically unlimited on trigger jobs, as long as they are not extrernally visible mods made.

So even though some guns by technical definition might be single action, and/or a non DA striker fired gun, they were determined to be within "the spirit" of the division.

Wow, could you imagine a Production Division without Glock, XD, and M&P?

[mpolans]

In my mind, the "double action" defined part of the rule is to determine if a pistol design should be allowed in the division or not.

Once it was voted in, its basically unlimited on trigger jobs, as long as they are not extrernally visible mods made.

So even though some guns by technical definition might be single action, and/or a non DA striker fired gun, they were determined to be within "the spirit" of the division.

Wow, could you imagine a Production Division without Glock, XD, and M&P?

The Glock should not be at issue at all, since regardless of any trigger job done, the sear surface of the trigger bar DOES move the striker back before releasing it. There's just no way a Glock can be modified like an M&P (MandP) to be Single-Action-Only.

I don't know about the XD, since I've never had one apart. However, I would think that *if* the striker on an XD is fully cocked, i.e., pulling the trigger does not move the striker further rearward before releasing it, logic would dictate that it's Single-Action-Only too. Even more interesting, if the above is true, unlike the M&P, which is converted to Single-Action-Only via a specifically permitted modification ("internal...polishing to improve...function"), the XD is Single-Action-Only right out of the box. But as I've said, I've never detail-stripped an XD; perhaps someone with a better understanding of the XD mechanism could explain how it isn't Single-Action-Only.

Edited July 28, 2008 by mpolans

[Flexmoney]

It can't be single-action...it's on the approved list.

[racerba]

It can't be single-action...it's on the approved list.

It's considered striker fired. It's single action because the pull of the trigger releases the striker (hammer). I believe, originally, Springfield advertised it as a single action pistol.

[kgunz11]

I think if it's meant to be an "out of the box" production class it should be that way. No modifications what so ever period. The problem with that is there is almost no way to police it. Some guns are obviously tricked out, some minor mods might not be so obvious.

The Glock trigger jobs utilize a set screw to limit reset travel but since it is an internal modification it gets by, even though it is an added part and does not come from the factory with it. The M&P works by removing some material, but not adding a part.

The big kicker is like I said, who and how will you keep ppl from tampering with a box stock pistol that anyone can go out and purchase and come to the local club to compete and be competitive? And I agree, the pistol the win does not make.

[Nik Habicht]

The big kicker is like I said, who and how will you keep ppl from tampering with a box stock pistol that anyone can go out and purchase and come to the local club to compete and be competitive? And I agree, the pistol the win does not make.

This was to my understanding part of the discussion when the current rules were being debated --- and the consensus apparently was that we didn't want to have forensic experts on hand to tear down all the guns at chrono. External modifications are pretty easy to spot --- just ask some people who got moved to open for grip tape in places other than the grip at recent Nationals.....

Other than that most people seem to be moved to open for having more than ten rounds in a mag after the beep --- often, but not always those people who have an 11 round start mag, and forget that it needs to be ten only on empty gun starts....

Last but not least --- even if policing of modifications were possible at a Nationals level event, it would be far less likely to occur at local matches. Since our rules should be easily workable at all levels (local, sectional/state, Area, and Nationals) that was a non-starter.....

[JThompson]

IMO it should have been DAs with hammers and grip tape only.... period.

The horse has already left the barn and run into the next state. There would be to much resistance to go back now.

[Nik Habicht]

However, I would think that *if* the striker on an XD is fully cocked, i.e., pulling the trigger does not move the striker further rearward before releasing it, logic would dictate that it's Single-Action-Only too.

When you look at the facts one way --- logic would dictate that. When you look at them another way --- striker-fired, long trigger pull moving in an arc --- logic would seem to dictate that this action type perhaps has more in common with double action autos (S&W numbered series, Sig, Beretta) than it does with single-action autos (1911, BHP...)

USPSA after long deliberation decided to go the second way --- so it seems that your options are to either accept the contradiction in terms and shoot, or petition your area director to bring the matter up during the next rules committee meeting, or prepare and file an arbitration at a match.....

I'm not liking the wording on this post --- it sounds condescending and I don't want it too. I also don't know how to get my point across differently --- this is one of those things that would be easier face to face....

[Nik Habicht]

IMO it should have been DAs with hammers and grip tape only.... period.

The horse has already left the barn and run into the next state. There would be to much resistance to go back now.

DAs with Hammers are the next revolvers.... :P

[kgunz11]

It's ok Nik, you're a MOD, you CAN be condescending if you want.

[Nik Habicht]

It's ok Nik, you're a MOD, you CAN be condescending if you want.

No, I really don't think so --- I believe in leading by example. I'm moderately handy with words --- but sometimes they fail me. I spent some time debating whether to click on "Add Reply"

[kgunz11]

It's cool Bro. You stated your difficulty in expressing yourself and added that you didn't want your tone misinterpreted. It's all you can do.

As for me, I was just ribbing ya cuz it happens to me all the time. The written word has no expression, yet I type like a speak, and it often gets me in trouble unless someone knows me well enough to know how it would come out of my mouth. I get my butt in a sling all the time for coming across the wrong way when I don't intend to.

[Singlestack]

It can't be single-action...it's on the approved list.

It's considered striker fired. It's single action because the pull of the trigger releases the striker (hammer). I believe, originally, Springfield advertised it as a single action pistol.

The trigger does move the striker to the rear before it releases it.

[racerba]

The trigger does move the striker to the rear before it releases it.

It does? It has a 'sear' - much like a 1911. B is the 'sear' which pivots down to release the striker C. Where is the rearward movement?

Edited July 29, 2008 by racerba

[steel1212]

Ever since I shot production with my XDs I've always thought a few things. 1st, purist hate that I shoot an XD in production. 2nd, single action or not its not a 1911 trigger.

In my mind production should be the guns that you can actually shoot in double action. Now if you say "SAFE ACTION GUN" that takes out the having to be double action part and therefore your single action XDs with its "SAFE ACTION" trigger is good to go.

With that being said I would say the MP with the single action trigger job is good to go. If its not then I would say its going to cost somebody a 100$ at a match to screw you.

[mpolans]

As the rules regarding Production Division do not mention double-action, "safe-action," or striker-fired (only the prohibition against "Single-Action-Only"), perhaps a definition of "Single-Action-Only" would be helpful. Here's one I pulled from Wikipedia [Trigger (firearms)]:

"Single action (SA)

A single-action trigger, sometimes single-action only, performs the single action of releasing the hammer or striker, which discharges the firearm.[1] Almost all rifles and shotguns use this type of trigger.[1] It is also common on pistols. Single-action semi-automatic pistols require that the hammer be cocked before the first round is fired.[2] Once the first round is fired the automatic movement of the slide cocks the hammer for each subsequent shot. The pistol, once cocked, can be fired by pulling the trigger once for each shot until the magazine is empty. The M1911 is a single-action pistol that functions in this manner."

Edited July 29, 2008 by mpolans

[Micah]

Well, since the NROI has already given the go-ahead for the M&P, why not contact the NROI and share your concerns. There have been several issues that I have needed precise rulings on that Amidon has set in stone.

[mpolans]

Well, since the NROI has already given the go-ahead for the M&P, why not contact the NROI and share your concerns. There have been several issues that I have needed precise rulings on that Amidon has set in stone.

An email has been sent. That said, I thought a thorough discussion in this forum would helpful to fully flesh out the issue and to gauge public reaction to various possible responses.

[mpolans]

The trigger does move the striker to the rear before it releases it.

It does? It has a 'sear' - much like a 1911. B is the 'sear' which pivots down to release the striker C. Where is the rearward movement?

Hmm...from the pic, it looks like the sear wouldn't cam the striker back. Looks like it's Single-Action-Only to me.

[Micah]

I thought a thorough discussion in this forum would helpful to fully flesh out the issue and to gauge public reaction to various possible responses.

Agreed. Don't be afraid to send multiple emails/calls to the NROI...sometimes things get lost in the shuffle.

[kgunz11]

So is this discussion to say the M&P or XD style handgun does not follow the spirit of Production division rules?

[HoMiE]

The trigger does move the striker to the rear before it releases it.

It does? It has a 'sear' - much like a 1911. B is the 'sear' which pivots down to release the striker C. Where is the rearward movement?

Hmm...from the pic, it looks like the sear wouldn't cam the striker back. Looks like it's Single-Action-Only to me.

The sear pivots in an arc and it does slighty push the the striker back. Now a good trigger job can reduce it, but it is still not a true single-action pistol like the 1911 design where the hammer-sear interface travels in parallel direction.

I don't know what you are trying to accomplish, trying to get the XD or M&P banned from Production seems like a dead-end. I think it has already been established that Production division is a non-1911, non-single action only division. I think if the XDs, M&Ps, Glocks, etc. were such a competitive advantage, they would not be allowed on the Production Approved Gun list. Take a look at the Sabre Spinx 3000, DA/SA pistols or the Tangfolio Stock match pistols.

[mpolans]

The trigger does move the striker to the rear before it releases it.

It does? It has a 'sear' - much like a 1911. B is the 'sear' which pivots down to release the striker C. Where is the rearward movement?

Hmm...from the pic, it looks like the sear wouldn't cam the striker back. Looks like it's Single-Action-Only to me.

The sear pivots in an arc and it does slighty push the the striker back. Now a good trigger job can reduce it, but it is still not a true single-action pistol like the 1911 design where the hammer-sear interface travels in parallel direction.

I don't know what you are trying to accomplish, trying to get the XD or M&P banned from Production seems like a dead-end. I think it has already been established that Production division is a non-1911, non-single action only division. I think if the XDs, M&Ps, Glocks, etc. were such a competitive advantage, they would not be allowed on the Production Approved Gun list. Take a look at the Sabre Spinx 3000, DA/SA pistols or the Tangfolio Stock match pistols.

I'm not trying to get anything banned or permanently included. Personally, I'm quite happy with my Glock 35. I just noticed this past weekend while I was disassembling my father's M&P 9 how the sear/striker mechanism worked and it made me wonder about the legality of modifying a Double-Action gun to Single-Action-Only. Responses to the poll thus far have been interesting. Perhaps this topic might be an introduction to discussing do rules really matter, or do they matter only when it is convenient? I know I took some grief a while ago in another post where I suggested the banning of conversion barrels (supposedly because of the miniscule added weight would be an advantage ) was illogical and not well thought-out; folks repeatedly stated, "but dem's da rules!" Yet I sense that in this case, many folks are saying, "ignore the rules, it's more convenient." Perhaps its a little late, but I added that as another choice...is there any way for folks to switch their vote? Either way, I'm hoping that a full discussion of the different possible interpretations (I came up with five, but maybe there are other possibilities) might help decrease the chances of an illogical and not well though-out ruling.

Edited July 30, 2008 by mpolans

[mike cyrwus]

The sear pivots in an arc and it does slighty push the the striker back.

Ding Ding Ding; we have a winner!

When a smith finds a way to take the pin out of a XD sear and get the sear, and along with it, the engagement surface, to fall straight down and release the trigger then we can talk about single action.

-likewise with a M&P.

You know what happens when you take the back of the M&P sear past 90 degrees? It will double.