Toddlers and guns...

[TDean]

I'm curious if anyone has experience or advice (well founded preferred ) concerning teaching kids about firearms at very young ages.

I'm not talking about "real" guns, I'm talking about toy guns. Do we even worry about telling them to not point it at something their not willing to destroy? Are they too young for that talk? Should we just let them play cowboys and indians until about age 8...or what?

Being a safe practical shooter, I find myself telling my 3 year-old that we don't shoot people, just animals....and only if we eat them (the animals that is).

When he picks up a pressure-washer wand, for example, he points it at things (me included) and does the shooting sound, which I assume the older kids at daycare are teaching him.

Is it just too darn early for gun-safety lessons? How can I buy him something as innocent as a squirt-gun when I'm worried about him breaking the 180?

Perhaps I'll checkout NRA's website. They may have something on this topic.

[WillM]

My 13 year old Frank and I have shot with you at Custer at least once, maybe more but I don't remember; maybe you do. He's been shooting firearms since he was four - he just won the Washington state sub-junior sporting clays championship last month and his older brother won the same title for the three years before that; he also started with firearms when he was four. Frank got me into shooting USPSA last year; I've only been interested in sporting clays for the 12 years before that.

My boys didn't shoot the real guns all that much or in any organized way, just when we'd go out in our field and shoot off a few .410's at hanging clays or for a really big time go to the indoor range with the .22Chipmunk, all under very direct supervision with my hands on the gun. Before that however, they both shot many different types of projectile launchers including rubber band guns, bb guns and the all time favorite, the over/under dart gun at spinning cardboard pigeons. All under direct, hands-on supervision with gun safety rules strictly enforced and abided by, including the wearing of safety glasses [and hearing protection when appropriate].

If your kid is picking up the regular kid stuff about guns at daycare, I think it is imperative that you expose him to the real thing as soon as possible and get him with the program. My boys sat with me in the duck blind since they were 4 and 5. They learn by watching as well as by doing. You son's probably still too young to do the real gun thing, but not too young to go to the range, probably with mom and watch you shoot and get the lecture directly from dad about finger off the trigger, the gun is always loaded, never aim at something you don't want to destroy, etc, etc. From there it's the next step to the rubber band gun, bb gun, etc. Get him involved and talk to him about what you expect and what will happen if he doesn't do what he needs to do. I've always given my kids as much responsiblity as they demonstrated they could handle, at all ages. No coddling and no exceptions for violations and it's a lot easier to deal with and correct problems with the non-lethal stuff; believe me, I DQ'd both my kids long before I ever know anything about USPSA rules! By the time they got to the real guns they were completely chaperoned until they demonstrated that they consistently had good, safe and ingrained gun handling skills. Even to this day if there is an unusual or unfamiliar situation, especially in a hunting environment or when my older son has gone off with his friends, we have a safety talk before we start.

I just had a father and three sons and a daughter come over Monday afternoon to shoot. The girl 3, was too young to shoot but the six year old shot the .410 and a 12 ga [twice with his dad holding the gun up] while Frank and another 13 year old and a nine year old shot clays. Of my friends kids, the nine year old was the best shot. I had a safety lecture with all the kids before we started, reminded one of them about his muzzle a couple of times, always stayed in a position where I could control a muzzle if I had to and we had a great time.

I never got too hung up about the pretend gun thing, water pistols, etc, but I always talked to them about the difference between the real thing and the toys. Never really had any cap guns or ray guns or anything like that, probably because we just did the real thing. I went through a tough period a few years ago when my oldest wanted to do paintball; I was really torn and couldn't think of why I would let them shoot their friends, point guns, etc. but actually I was much more worried about the other kid's gun handling skills or lack thereof. I know of four kids who had eye injuries due to other kids not practicing proper paintball gun handling so I just said, it's a safety issue and I'm not going to let them do it. I made sure to take them to the range or hunting instead though. By exposing your son early to the proper and regular use of firearms you're removing the mystique factor; I always told my boys if you ever want to see or handle one of my guns come get me and we'll open up the safe and look it over and handle it even if we don't have time to go shooting right then. Same went for their friends; anytime they wanted to see one just ask - I can't tell you how many kids I've taught to shoot and properly handle firearms right in my back yard and also taken hunting. Most of them haven't become regular shooters but there are a few hunters in the bunch and none of them are awed by, or sneak around to handle guns; they just come over here.

I could go on all night about this, but let's talk. I'll be at Renton on Sunday, etc. PM me for contact info; I'd love to pass down some "toys" and tips to make your time with your son more enjoyable. My favorite animal story was when I shot the last deer on my Montana tag early the morning we had to leave; I gutted it and packed it with dry ice and threw it in the back of the truck and headed home. When I rolled in late that night, my oldest who was then 3 was still up. He looked at the deer and turned to me and asked "did you shoot that deer dad?" Yes, I replied and he then said "Was it a bad deer dad?" I thought that was pretty funny but I realized that he was picking up his info about shooting bad guys from TV, so we got rid of the TV right after that and haven't had one in the house since.

[kimel]

Never too early to start!

My first shot ever fired was with a wax bullet in a 1917 .45 revo at a balloon taped to the basement wall. I was 5. Dad was wondering if I could pull the trigger. Yeah, took both hands and it was a single action pull but I did it. Ended up doing it many, many times that night. And thus was a gun lover created.

Gun storage changed at our house that very night.

I was never allowed to point even toy guns at people. Exceptions were made of course because playing Oppressive White Man and Native Americans, Combat, Rat Patrol, SWAT, etc. just isn't fun if you can't shoot back.

But the lesson about don't point guns at people stuck. And this is in large part why paintball is absolutely torture for me today and I just won't do it.

So, my take on this is start 'em early.

[Guy Neill]

I agree - start them as soon as they are curious. Make them understand the difference between real and toy.

You might want to read Massad Ayoob's book "Gunproofing Your Child".

Guy

[tightloop]

IMO, it depends on the maturity level of the child and the manner in which the parent(s) introduce and indoctrinate the child in firearm safety and usage...some are ready at an early age and some not till later. A decision to be made by the parents alone. No matter your decision there will be "yea" and "nea" from all sides....

[Jim Norman]

Some will never be ready!

Jim

[Rocket35]

Here is a video of my three kids today...we have a long way to go, but the important thing is that we treat these airsoft guns as though they are real guns and I stress safety constantly with them. This is essentially the first time I have worked with Tristin and Cheyenne, but Brittany has had a little more time behind the trigger. I think the age really depends on what others' have mentioned above. Start them off with airsoft-, move up to a .22 then a 9mm or something. That is what I am planning on doing anyway.... Good luck with what ever you decide!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgz8BolUt64

[SA Friday]

I agree - start them as soon as they are curious. Make them understand the difference between real and toy.

You might want to read Massad Ayoob's book "Gunproofing Your Child".

Guy

Solid advise. I started the safety lessons with all three of my kids when they were about 3 years old. I wear a gun to work and have guns in the house. If you want to feel gut wretching fear, watching a vid of a 4 year old figure out how to cycle a govt 1911 on the edge of a table will do it for you. Damn skippy that curiosity needs to be quenched if you have guns in the house.

My wife and I have re-enforced not pointing any gun, toy or real, at people at the same time. As they have gotten older, I have progressed my oldest daughter into shooting without having to re-enforce very much. Guns are just no mystery to her anymore and she knows to leave them alone unless I'm there. My middle one (11 y.o. boy) is not interested so he has shot but doesn't care for it at this time. I have not pushed it, and will see what the future holds. My 5 y.o. is enthralled with toy guns, swords and martial arts (ah, my mini-me...) He gets lots of re-enforcement about guns, knives, plastic swords, jumping onto people, kicking poeple, attacking the dogs.... well you get it. Each one of my kids requires different levels of progression in the guns/weapons area. My latest step for the 5yo is martial arts (other two already in it for years). The lack of control with his plastic swords was taking a toll on Dad's shins. Can't wait till he figures out what iaido is and finds my japanese white oak bokens and staff. I'm sure I will have to head that curiosity off at the pass too.

[Genghis]

Kids are never too young to learn gun safety. NRA's Eddie Eagle program teaches them if they find a gun, Stop! Don't touch. Leave the area. Tell an adult.

[tgibson]

My son shot his first USPSA match when he was 6. He is very responsible and cautious. I think it depends a lot on the kid. Some will be ready before others. Don't sell them short. They probably understand more than we think.

Adios,

TG

[kimel]

Kids are never too young to learn gun safety. NRA's Eddie Eagle program teaches them if they find a gun, Stop! Don't touch. Leave the area. Tell an adult.

I really disagree with this stance. That is teaching the kids to FEAR firearms. We don't want them to fear them, we want them to respect them.

Of course that is the only stance that is probably defensible in court.

[Nik Habicht]

Kids are never too young to learn gun safety. NRA's Eddie Eagle program teaches them if they find a gun, Stop! Don't touch. Leave the area. Tell an adult.

I really disagree with this stance. That is teaching the kids to FEAR firearms. We don't want them to fear them, we want them to respect them.

Of course that is the only stance that is probably defensible in court.

I disagree --- that it's teaching Fear of Firearms. There are vastly different situations intended to be covered by a single approach --- for instance:

1. Your trained, exposed mature child who's been shooting a lot with you and has a healthy respect for guns finds a loaded gun on your kitchen counter when he comes in from school by himself. That situation could probably end well....

2. Your trained, exposed mature child (same as above) enters a friend's house with a bunch of schoolmates (with unknown firearms exposure) and finds a loaded gun on the kitchen counter. There are no adults in the house. What's the correct immediate action? (I don't think Unload and Show Clear counts.....)

[TDean]

First, thanks for the responses guys. What a cool forum Brian has created here.

Will, I think I do remember you and your son. My congratulations to Frank for winning the state title, and to you for obviously raising two good, responsible marksman. Well done sir. I'm imagining what it would be like ...in say...10 years..to be able to claim my son(s) was a state champion shooter. Cooool! ;-)

I don't know if I'll make Renton, but I'd like to talk with you if/when we recognize one-another on the range. Perhaps at the Custer slot match.

Thanks for the recommendation Guy. One of the first firearms books I read was Massad's "In the Gravest Extreme".

Rocket, well done. Watching Cheyenne trying to manipulate the airsoft is about what I would expect if I tried that with my son. Good teaching.

SA, do you have a link for the video you mentioned? I'd like to see that so I don't underestimate my kids. Can a 3yo rack a shotgun? Hmmm....

Travis, wow, 6 years old? Cool. That means I only have a few years before I can take my boy shooting

Thank again guys.

Tom

[Jack Suber]

My son has been going hunting with me since he was 2 years old and going to matches (shagging brass/pasting targets since he was 3). He has always been exposed to firearms and I have always made a big deal about safety. I made sure that he learned early on what firearms could do. I recall him looking at a deer I shot one time and asking if it was "Really dead." I said, "yes." He asked, "Forever?" I said, "Yes." I then I told him that the same can happen to people of we were not careful with firearms.

When we went dove hunting, he carried a Cabella's double barrel cap gun. That was a "REAL" gun. I expected him to treat it like a real gun - related to safety. If he did not, I would take it away from him. I never really encouraged him to "play" with guns, simply because I have so many that I did not want him to be careless with on if for some reason he came across one for some unforeseen reason. I also did not want to demonize them.

I started him with a "Chipmunk" .22 when he was about 3 or 4. It is a "crew-served" rifle so it is fun and easy for the adult to control the situation. With pistols I started him at age 12 with minor loads. My test was when his hands were large enough to hold a pistol safely.

I wanted to make sure that I had him exposed to firearms at an early age and that he was aware of exactly what they could do. I also sent him to shooting related camps at an early age - his first being Camp Woodie here in South Carolina. It is run by the South Carolina Water Fowl Association and is a fantastic facility. Several firearms manufacturers support the organization and they provide instruction all week long during the camp. That was John's first camp (age 8) and I thought we would never get him out of there. He had a blast! They provided instruction with .22 rifles, wing-shooting, archery, and all kinds of hunting/shooting related and conservation related skills. He went there for 3 years (it goes from age 8 - 17; he wants to go back as an instructor) and then went to River Bend in Fingerville South Carolina. Riverbend is a Wing-shooting camp. All they do is teach sporting clays, skeet, and trap. It is targeted for a smaller group of kids - usually 3 - 5 and the instruction is incredible - pros from Beretta and Remington. Then of course, there is Camp Shoot-out. John has been twice and that is the ultimate to him.

Get them involved early! Shagging brass, pasting targets. Helping at matches. Get them exposed to firearms. Remember, however, that what we do and how we handle ourselves with firearms is what makes the greatest impression on our kids. It is 10 times more important that we are sure we are handling firearms safely when around our kids. They will do as we do. We have to teach by example.

On another note - When I decided to get a toy gun for my son to carry with us when we went hunting, I decided to go to Toys R Us to find one. When I got there, I looked and looked. I could not find any. So, after about 10 minutes, a guy (the manager) came up and asked me if he could help me. I told him I was looking for toy guns. He said, "We don't carry any because those are associated with violence." He is telling me this as we are looking at WWF actions figures with "Bone Crushing Sound Effects" advertised on the box. I pointed to it and said, "Yeah, its a good thing you don't carry toys that are associated with violence." I walked out and haven't been back to Toys R Us since.

[SA Friday]

SA, do you have a link for the video you mentioned? I'd like to see that so I don't underestimate my kids. Can a 3yo rack a shotgun? Hmmm....

I saw this on an anti-gun program on TV years back. I haven't looked for it on line, I can't even remember the name of the program. It was like a news/60 minutes/special report type deal. I disregarded all the propaganda, but the vid of the 4yo girl cycling the 1911 really struck home. It was just something I wasn't ready for or believed possible. It stuck in my head. She put the front edge of the slide near the muzzle on the edge of a low table, both hands on the grip safety under the beavertail, and pushed her body weight down on it. It fully cycled. She was even fairly small for a 4 yo. Sorry best I can do. You might want to poke around on u tube etc. I can't from my location.

[Chris Conley]

Here is a video of my three kids today...we have a long way to go, but the important thing is that we treat these airsoft guns as though they are real guns and I stress safety constantly with them. This is essentially the first time I have worked with Tristin and Cheyenne, but Brittany has had a little more time behind the trigger. I think the age really depends on what others' have mentioned above. Start them off with airsoft-, move up to a .22 then a 9mm or something. That is what I am planning on doing anyway.... Good luck with what ever you decide!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgz8BolUt64

Very nice video Jay Rock. Not to sound rude but you can see a difference in the ummmm..... in the age and attention to instruction. My 5 year old boy loves shooting an airsoft but he doesn't retain alot. It's great spending time with your kids shooting. Some of us get so busy at work we don't spend enough time with our kids.

Chris C.

[rvb]

You might want to read Massad Ayoob's book "Gunproofing Your Child".

Guy

Any sources for this book? Amazon lists 4 retailers starting at $99.00 each.

Local Library system does not have this book.

thanks, I have a little-one on the way...

rvb

Edit: Found it on www.ayoob.com for $4.95. That's more realistic. Will order this evening (and maybe will get a couple of his other books while I'm at it).

Edited July 25, 2008 by rvb

[JKSNIPER]

IMHO All children who have the potential to come into contact with a real firearm should be taught firearms safety along the lines of the Eddie Eagle program the NRA has.

THEY teach them "If you see a gun what should you do? Answer is:

1.Don't touch it.

2. Leave the area.

3. Tell an adult.

If kids follow these rules there is very little possibility of an accident.

As far as safe gun handling goes...

I started it with my own kids when they were very small.

I'M an L.E. officer so at least one weapon is in my home at all times.

And yes its loaded because the unloaded ones don't work so good.

I instituted a policy between my wife and myself that ANYTIME ANY of my kids showed the SLIGHTEST curiosity in my weapons all they had to do was ask to see it.

I would stop whatever I was doing and show them my firearm.

I always went over the safe handling rules EVERY TIME (M.A.T.T. Muzzle, Action Trigger Target) I did this and once the weapon was clear safe and empty I would let them handle it under my close supervision of course.

After a few times they lost all childhood curiosity of firearms and they became no big deal.

One time a friend of theirs was visiting and saw my come home and take off my sidearm and place it on top of a cabinet and he was all bug eyed.

He asked my kids "Your dad has a gun?"

Their response was "Of course he does...hes a cop..stupid." Like it was no big deal.

( I would have done the safety thing with this kid also but when I asked the boys mom about it she looked at me like I was the incarnation of Atilla the Hun)

Now my son is a police officer and my daughter is a teacher and they still enjoy shooting and I will probably do the same for my grandchildren.

I will admit that interupting what you are doing every time they want to see your weapons IS a pain in the ass but the alternative is much worse.....and it only lasts for a little while. Then they lose their curiosity and it becomes like a chair or table in the house. No big deal.

JK

[Rocket35]

Here is a video of my three kids today...we have a long way to go, but the important thing is that we treat these airsoft guns as though they are real guns and I stress safety constantly with them. This is essentially the first time I have worked with Tristin and Cheyenne, but Brittany has had a little more time behind the trigger. I think the age really depends on what others' have mentioned above. Start them off with airsoft-, move up to a .22 then a 9mm or something. That is what I am planning on doing anyway.... Good luck with what ever you decide!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgz8BolUt64

Very nice video Jay Rock. Not to sound rude but you can see a difference in the ummmm..... in the age and attention to instruction. My 5 year old boy loves shooting an airsoft but he doesn't retain alot. It's great spending time with your kids shooting. Some of us get so busy at work we don't spend enough time with our kids.

Chris C.

Yeah- I will have to work on that too. I have more footage of working with Cheyenne, but trimmed to fit the song. They all are listening and understand what ever I am telling them- so I think they all have the capacity to learn. I worked overtime last night so Brittany is really bummed that we don't have time to go out and practice with the airsofts today! They get addicted to shooting about as fast as adults!