To FTDR or not to FTDR

[steel1212]

Stage setup and description. You have 3 targets at the back of the bay with a swinging no shoot in front of them. You have a wall in front of that about 5-7 yards. You start at barrel about 5-7 yards from wall and to the left with rope activating swinger in your strong hand. You can engage targets while moving to barricade or from barricade. 4 shots on each target, 12 shots required.

Friend of mine starts with the rope in his strong hand but behind his back. When the buzzer goes off he pulls rope and bust to the right side of the barricade, basically keeping the rope out of his way. He then only shoots 11 shots as I honestly believe he got all confused with from the start and never did a reload. Now, the SO gives him a Procedural for not firing 12 shots and he gets a -5 for the miss, so that is a 5 second penalty before we start scoring.

I'm sitting in the shade with another squad that is shooting in the bay behind us. I hear the SO for that squad say that its a FTDR for gaming. Which I respond gaming isn't a penalty. He then responds he gained an advantage by not doing the reload. I left it at that as my temper was heating up and it was already 98 today.

So here is the question, would you give the guy a FTDR? He shot it in 6 seconds and change PLUS the 5 seconds on top of that plus what ever else he was down. Me and a master shooter shot it in 9 and change and dropped a couple points. I personally don't think its a FTDR offense. For one he gets the 5 seconds from the miss and procedural and who can't do a reload and shoot in 5 seconds? Secondly, if your going to throw out a 20 second penalty somebody had damn well better be gaining a HUGE advantage in my book by CHEATING and deserve it.

So what say you more experienced SO/Shooters, FTDR or Procedural and -5 for the miss?

Edited July 19, 2008 by steel1212

[UW Mitch]

ftdr...soooo subjective...he did know he would have to take 12 shots, which would mean he would have to reload, so by not reloading he didn't so something right. Confused? Gaming? Subjective indeed. The point of 15 seconds is that it's supposed to be so big that no one would "opt" for the ftdr over doing a cof the "right way".

~Mitch

[steel1212]

ftdr...soooo subjective...he did know he would have to take 12 shots, which would mean he would have to reload, so by not reloading he didn't so something right. Confused? Gaming? Subjective indeed. The point of 15 seconds is that it's supposed to be so big that no one would "opt" for the ftdr over doing a cof the "right way".

~Mitch

Mitch I know why the FTDR is there and why its so high, so as nobody would cheat to be afraid of getting it. My question is, does this guy deserve it? Did he do something so wrong as to deserve a 20 second penalty? I honestly think he had a brain fade and forgot to and by the time he realized it he figured it wasn't worth it to reload for one shot like in USPSA.

Edited July 19, 2008 by steel1212

[Gregg K]

An FTDR is 20 seconds not 15.

You would not be giving him an FTDR in this case...I'm afraid that he actually earned it. I know that it is a bit harsh but it is what fits here.

[brboyer]

1st off it's none of the other SO's business and he needs to keep out of it. Just like the peanut gallery - keep your mouths shut! The only people with any authority on the stage are the SO's assigned to that stage.

As an SO, when I'm not running shooters, I keep my mouth shut unless there is a safety issue.

2nd - 11 shots on a 12 shot stage = FTDR, IMHO.

Brian

[steel1212]

An FTDR is 20 seconds not 15.

You would not be giving him an FTDR in this case...I'm afraid that he actually earned it. I know that it is a bit harsh but it is what fits here.

If I wouldn't be giving him one, why would he earn it, and why would he earn it anyway it didn't help him any in the end?

[revchuck]

I disagree with Gregg, and agree with the SO. If he could burn through it in three seconds less than a Master class shooter, it's probable he could've reloaded and re-engaged the last target within that three seconds. 5.5 seconds added to his score kills any chance of having done it for a competitive advantage.

Corey's right: Gaming isn't against the rules; by definition it's staying within the rules, albeit going right up to the edges. Cheating is, and this doesn't sound like it.

[steel1212]

2nd - 11 shots on a 12 shot stage = FTDR, IMHO.

Brian

I can see if this gained a huge advantage, in this instance I don't see a huge advantage at all. In the end we shot it better "the way it was suppose to be shot" than he did.

Oh, and don't anybody take this the wrong way but I'm not looking for opinions, if your going to FTDR somebody it needs more to back that up.

I'm looking for the right answer on this.

Edited July 19, 2008 by steel1212

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I would have given him the FTDR. Read Pages 14 & 15 of the rule book. This particular example is on the list for FTDR.

As far as another SO making the comment, I agree with BRBOYER. The other SO needs to tend to his own stage or squad.

Edited July 20, 2008 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[roxymajor]

OK, it was me. I was the "gaming" perpetrator. I did the rope thing for safety (so i don't get he rope tangled with my trot to the wall) it was not going to save any time. The just shooting 11 shots was 100% brain fart. I lost count with the swinger, thought I had shot 4 at all 3 targets, after I stoped I actually though I had an extra round in the mag. I CAN reload faster than 5 seconds, I swear...well 9/10 times.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

OK, it was me. I was the "gaming" perpetrator. I did the rope thing for safety (so i don't get he rope tangled with my trot to the wall) it was not going to save any time. The just shooting 11 shots was 100% brain fart. I lost count with the swinger, thought I had shot 4 at all 3 targets, after I stoped I actually though I had an extra round in the mag. I CAN reload faster than 5 seconds, I swear...well 9/10 times.

Not doubting your "brain fart" but no handgun allowed in IDPA can fire 12 rounds without a reload. I would still give you the FTDR but I never called you a gamer even though I consider the term a compliment

[steel1212]

I would have given him the FTDR. Read Pages 14 & 15 of the rule book. This particular example is on the list for FTDR.

As far as another SO making the comment, I agree with BRBOYER. The other SO needs to tend to his own stage or squad.

PC 1

Section D. Examples

3. Not reloading to fire one more round because your score will be better even with the miss.

His score was not better than if he would have reloaded and fired the extra shot.

As for the other SO...the way he acted is why new shooters don't come back.

Edited July 20, 2008 by steel1212

[steel1212]

gamer even though I consider the term a compliment

[Hot Brass]

The SO made the right call. It's an FTDR. Brain fart or not. If the SO did not call it, because he believed it to be an honest mistake or whatever, then that means every shooter in the match could do the same thing and claim a brain fart. Consistency goes out the window. I would not presume roxymajor was cheating, anyone can have a brain fart, but I would still give him the FTDR.

[SteveU]

The SO made the right call. It's an FTDR. Brain fart or not. If the SO did not call it, because he believed it to be an honest mistake or whatever, then that means every shooter in the match could do the same thing and claim a brain fart. Consistency goes out the window. I would not presume roxymajor was cheating, anyone can have a brain fart, but I would still give him the FTDR.

FTDR should be reserved for... say.. sticking a paster over the eye of a shooter right before the "Make Ready" command.

or maybe touching and scoring own targets before the SO gets there.

All kidding aside, Roxymajor, like me, is much more likely to have a brian fart than cheat. "Can I borrow a cover garment?" He gained nothing by it and was punished enough by the procedural and the 5 down.

[revchuck]

Guys - A reminder of what the rulebook says about the FTDR:

B. Is assessed for any attempt to circumvent or compromise

the spirit or rationale of any stage by the use of

inappropriate devices, equipment or techniques.

C. Is assessed for unsportsmanlike conduct, unfair actions,

or the use of illegal equipment, which, in the opinion of the

MD, tends to make a travesty of the defensive shooting

sport.

If the SO believed the shooter skipped the reload on purpose, with the hope of a better score, then the FTDR would apply. If it was a brain fart, the FTDR would be inappropriate. The SO is there to make those calls. If you want to make an impact in this kind of thing, get certified as an SO and start working matches. Yes, I know that a lot of those who responded already are!

The rulebook also states:

CoF 11. On stages that have a minimum round count one (1)

round higher than the capacity of a competitors firearm,

emptying the firearm and failing to reload so as not to engage

the last shot in order to gain a competitive advantage will

result in an FTDR.

Did the shooter do this in order to gain a competitive advantage? Doesn't look that way.

Talking about scoring (p.44), the rulebook says:

Always award any question on

scoring to the contestant.

I think it's fair to extend this to penalties as well. If I can't say for sure a shooter did something that deserved and FTDR, I'm not going to give one.

[-JQ-]

I would have given him the FTDR. Read Pages 14 & 15 of the rule book. This particular example is on the list for FTDR.

As far as another SO making the comment, I agree with BRBOYER. The other SO needs to tend to his own stage or squad.

As for the other SO...the way he acted is why new shooters don't come back.

As a new (paid membership at the match today) idpa shooter I can't comment on the FTDR rule, but I have an "expert" opinion on the other SO. Not only did it seem inappropriate to chime in, but he was load and rude about it...and it made am impression for sure but only for him NOT the sport or club.

We all know this guy. We never met but our introduction was informative enough. I don't ever want to squad with that dude. Now I wish I had gotten his name so I would know which squad to dodge.

Everyone else I encountered was very helpful and congenial...maybe if EVERY one was like that guy...but that was far from the case.

As I always heard - it is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it...

I really enjoyed the match and thanks for all the help today guys!

[Buzzdraw]

The shooter knew (if I understand the COF) that a reload would be required to complete the course. Failure to do the reload (and thus shoot fewer rounds) is a clear FTDR offense.

Even if the shooter messed up by accident, it appears that a FTDR may have been required.

[RobMoore]

While its specifically listed in the rulebook as an example of an FTDR penalty, the definition of FTDR trumps the example, and I don't see this instance as falling under the definition.

However, I do believe in an SO's ability to TACTFULLY inquire about another SO not giving out a penalty where he/she saw one. I know I don't like to see other SOs fail to give them out because they either #1 Don't want to be mean #2 Don't know the rulebook well enough to know an infraction has occured.

[lugnut]

Club match vs. sanctioned... I'm maybe ok with a 3 sec procedural and the down 5.... IF he's at a MM or NV level. NO way a SS or more experienced shooter would forget... since no guns in IDPA load to 12 rounds and most would have no problem remembering this. 5 secs for draw and 11 rounds in 3 targets with in NS swinging in front... when a master took 9 secs? Hmmm.

Also- the other people should have kept their mouths shut and let the SOs do their job.

Edited July 20, 2008 by lugnut

[Gregg K]

Most people equate giving an FTDR with calling someone a cheater but that is not always the case. It is possible to get an FTDR with an honest mistake. It just means that you failed to do something right.

I understand most folks going easy on new shooters because we want them to come back and have a good time. Most of the more competitive shooters that I know want to be scored hard even at club matches so they are better prepared for the sanctioned matches.

[steel1212]

Most people equate giving an FTDR with calling someone a cheater but that is not always the case. It is possible to get an FTDR with an honest mistake. It just means that you failed to do something right.

I understand most folks going easy on new shooters because we want them to come back and have a good time. Most of the more competitive shooters that I know want to be scored hard even at club matches so they are better prepared for the sanctioned matches.

Greg if you use the actual meaning of the "failed to do something right" then not being behind cover is failing to do something right.

I guess I'll stay in the minority on this one. I don't see the cause for that major of a penalty. Personally, in my opinion, a FTDR is right on the line of DQ. You give somebody a 20 second penalty their match is DONE PERIOD. There was several 12 shot stages today, did he do it on every stage, no he didn't just the last stage.

I'll shoot my first major match next month, I'll guess I'll see how that one is run.

HK_mtbr, glad you got to come down and shoot with us, sorry for the outburst

Edited July 20, 2008 by steel1212

[kdmoore]

The short answer is : I'd award the FTDR. The defense "nothing was gained" is universal, if it applied this wouldn't be one of the limited list where FTDR's are applied. On a related note, I believe it's better for the sport in the long run, when something written in the rule book as an example earns the penalty described.

There are some interesting things to talk about tho.

If this is a "minor/local" match, it's possible that the SO on record was fairly new. If that's the case, comments from other SO's are appropriate .... if done appropriately. Being a jerk is bad, being a jerk as an SO is badder, being a jerk as a MD is baddest. IMO.

It's possible the stage description mentioned a reload. No one's commented on that, but often times it's said, "perform your reload behind cover". Certainly a reload is implied in a 12 round COF. ALWAYS do a reload on a 12 COF. I don't care if you accidently load up with a 17 round mag, ALWAYS do the reload. IMHO of course.

If this was a local match, as an SO I'd have tried to help you remember by saying "reload". Then, if you don't it's because you are thinking ... as steel1212 put it quote "by the time he realized it he figured it wasn't worth it to reload for one shot" ... and this is the VERY point of the rule IMO. Not firing the round because the penalties are a better outcome than firing the extra shot.

Again: the defense ... you gain no advantage in this case by skipping the reload ... well, that's the case for every shot skipped to avoid a reload. In other words, it's ALWAYS a minimum of 1 miss + 1 procedural. Yet it is listed as an example.

Side notes:

I find the argument "I thought I had accidently loaded 12 rounds into my gun at LAMR" actually pretty good. I think we've all seen ... if not been guilty of ... shooters use mags with the wrong number of rounds. Seen it under and over loaded. But I'm still not buying it. It becomes a slippery slope. Eventually this is like the round dumping penalty. Shooters could always say "I thought I loaded 12" and the SO would have to mind read to prove it not so?

For a while I religiously used 10 round mags during a match to prevent this very thing, I found that as an SO, I was often loading mags in a hurry, or while someone was trying to talk with me, or while tired, etc. Other tricks were loading out of ammo trays. None of my mags had witness holes, I'm assuming yours didn't either.

The actions of the shooter aren't what I would expect from someone who is counting his rounds (which is the core of his argument against the penalty). If you had dropped a mag at your count of 11 rounds, seated a mag and racked the slide because you expected the gun to be empty, then you would have avoided ftdr.

Lastly, the stage was written with an obvious reload intended. I think you are always better off (from a penalty point of view) to do that reload. i.e. if you had a mag with 12 rounds, you should reload and fire a 13th. That's where the SO is likely to think "no harm, no foul" because the minimum number of rounds were shot and a reload was performed.

Parting shot:

I don't think the FTDR is a big deal. You get to shoot the rest of the match, you weren't going to win with the mental screw up anyways. Hopefully it'll encourage you to make more sure of your mag counts. And it's a cool war story for later. YMMV.

[steel1212]

Parting shot:

I don't think the FTDR is a big deal. You get to shoot the rest of the match, you weren't going to win with the mental screw up anyways. Hopefully it'll encourage you to make more sure of your mag counts. And it's a cool war story for later. YMMV.

Your right with a screw up your not likely to win the match but how can you believe a 20 second penalty in a match isn't a big deal? Lets add 20 seconds to the end of your field course in USPSA...you would zero the stage more than likely. I've only been shooting IDPA and USPSA for 2 years so I guess, like I stated before, I'll stay in the minority and feel that a FTDR is for a major offense.

[revchuck]

Most people equate giving an FTDR with calling someone a cheater but that is not always the case. It is possible to get an FTDR with an honest mistake. It just means that you failed to do something right.

Gregg - Following this logic, all procedurals become FTDRs.

The FTDR is meant to be a "big stick" to whomp someone with. 20 seconds effectively puts someone out of contention for any awards at a major match. If you're going to whomp somebody that hard, it needs to be for something really egregious.