Insane amount of leading in 625JM

[Taildraggerdave]

Hello again,

First off, I wasn't sure if this should be in Reloading or in Revo but since it mostly applies to my 625 I put it here. Feel free to move if necessary.

I have been reloading .45ACP for a while now using a Dillon 550B. My standard game load is 3.9/4.0gr of Clays pushing whatever plated 230gr RN that I can find for cheap. Berrys, Xtreme, etc.

Loads have always been accurate enough for me in either my 1911 or my 625. I recently decided to experiment with LRN, due to the rising bullet costs and bought a box each of Silver State 230gr LRN and the same from Missouri Bullets (BHN12).

Using the same amount of Clays and an OAL of 1.230 for each brand. Have put a couple hundred of each through my 625 as that is my current favorite gaming gun and the leading is unbelievable. I tried Chore boy pads, etc and wound up buying a Lewis Lead Remover from Brownells to get the 625 clean. I didn't measure the chambers but either lead bullet will drop through all the chambers from the throat end. I have a chrono date set for next weekend so I'll have to get back with those numbers. I put only 14 LRN (Missouris) through my 1911 and found a single large chunk about an inch past the chamber. The 625 chambers are 100% lead covered from the headspace ridge all the way to the end of the cylinder. The forcing cone has a fair amount of lead as well but the barrel doesn't seem to lead any where near as much as the cylinder and cone.

I was thinking that maybe my Clays load was too hot for lead only but found on another forum that a guy was using 4.4gr of Clays pushing a 230gr LRN to make 165 power factor. If that is true, then my loads are too weak.

Looking for any thoughts, tips, or ideas.

Thanks again,

Dave

[ebg3]

I tried n310 with 205gr cast bullets in my .40 STI and the leading was so bad the bullets would keyhole after +/- 200 rounds. Tried n320 and it was better. Went to n330 and the leading was even less. The fast burning powders tend to cause more leading than slower powders. A few years ago when vv n340 was THE powder to use in .40, I shot +30lbs of it with 205gr cast bullets and never had leading problems. It's just hard to go back to the slower burning powders after getting used to the lighter feel of the fast burners. My .02.

EG

[Scout454]

dave -

What you describe is caused by gascutting. The bullets are undersize enough that gas from the powder is going past the bullets, melting them, and leaving lead in your chambers and forcing cone.

If you want to shoot lead, slug the barrel and the cylinders (all 6 of them). Hopefully the cylinders are the same size as the bore. Then get cast bullets that are are .001 or .002 larger than the bore/cylinder.

[anachronism]

You need to slug your cylinder throats and your bore to determine what size bullets you need. If the lead bullets drop easily therough the throats, you need more bullet diameter. There should be slight resistance in the throats, requiring you to push them through with a pencil, without noticable effort. Your cylinder throats should be slightly larger than your barrel bore. Also, how hard (bhn) are these bullets supposed to be? Hard cast bullets aren't necessary in 45 ACP, and are pretty much undesirable because they can prevent obturation. Your 625 is telling you that the problem is starting at the cylinder itself, as soon as the bullets are fired. I'm betting you have a sizing issue.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQ...54/ai_n21175826

Edited July 19, 2008 by anachronism

[Taildraggerdave]

I used a hole gage and caliper to check the cylinder throats and they all appear to be .453

Probably not as accurate as slugging but it does give me a number to start with...

I checked a random sample of Missouri bullets at .452 (as advertised) and a random sample of Silver State at .453

Take care,

Dave

[anachronism]

Oh! One other thing. If you don't remove all jacket fouling before shooting cast bullets, the bore will lead. Jacket fouling is abrasive, kind of like fine sandpaper. Sonce you brought up the weak load scenario, for a bullet at 12bhn, you'll need a load that generates at least 17,064 CUP to obturate your bullet. According to Hodgdons site, 4.0 gr of Clays only generates 16,800 CUP. This is also a likely contributing factor.

[vrmn1]

It sounds more like the bullets are undersize and not sealing the bore.

A common problem with commercial bullets.

Another common problem with commercial bullets is their alloy is too hard.

AND yet another common problem with commercial bullets is the cheap lube they use.

Here is the answer to your cast bullet leading problems.

Cast your own.

You can size them to fit your gun.

You can use good lube that works.

You can taylor your alloy.

I shoot almost nothing but my own cast bullets. I DON'T have leading.

[DougCarden]

I would check with some of the Revo Smiths around here.....and see what the specs are on the charge holes...I dont know, but I would lean towards sending them the damn gun back and tell them you want a cylinder with .452 holes so you can use commercial bullets and not have to dick with making special bullets just for that gun.....

My .02$.....

DougC

[Toolguy]

You need to check the holes with gauge pins. A hole gauge and calipers is not accurate enough. The main problem with commercial cast

bullets is the lube. The commercial guys use hard lube that has to be heated up to go on the bullets. They do that so they can bulk pack them

for shipping. The lube that works is soft sticky Alox type lube. With that lube you can't just dump them in a box or they turn into one big ball

of crap. You have to make trays and set them neatly in rows on the base of the bullet with the nose pointing up. There is a carnuba wax lube

that works very well for this. If you don't want to cast your own, you can get commercial bullets, put them in the freezer for a day or two,

dump them in a pan and shake them up. The hard lube will break up and fall off. Then you can run them through a lubri-sizer and put your

own choice of lube on them and make them the size you want.

[Jaxshooter]

I use Precision bullets in two 625s with 4.0 gr Clays and have never had a leading problem. I could not get either gun to shoot Berry's accurately. The base of the Precision bullets is concave slightly, don't know if the helps or not.

[anachronism]

You will want to slug the barrel, and not use plug gauges. The problem with plug gauges is that they only tell you the diameter of the bore at it's narrowest point. If you have a bore that it out-of-round (it does happen), you'll never know it. If this happens, you could have the same problem continue, and never figure out what's wrong. With a slug, all you need to do is mike the slug in a couple of different areas to know what's going on. Barrels have to be slugged anyway, so it's no big deal to do it all at once.

One other thing to watch for in the barrel is the barrel being choked down in the forcing cone area when it's installed in the frame. I had a couple of older S&Ws exhibit this. One was a 686+ that was choked down so hard that my range rod wouldn't fit in the last 1-1/2 in of the barrel. The other was an early 625. I think S&W's got a handle on that now problem though.

[Toolguy]

The plug gauges are for the chamber throats, not the barrel.

[anachronism]

The plug gauges are for the chamber throats, not the barrel.

I understand that. I didn't communicate it well, but I understand it. Plug gauges are okay as a quick & dirty means of gauging the throats, but there is much more information to be gained by slugging the throats instead. The only thing a plug gauge will do for you is indicate the throat diameter at the tightest point.

Oval fishing sinkers seem to work the best.

[Taildraggerdave]

Thanks for the replies and info so far.

I'll swing by a sporting goods store and get some fishing sinkers. Slug the chambers and barrel and chrono some stuff I already have made up next Saturday.

Take care,

Dave

[cas]

In my experience (with only a few dozen 625 cylinders), when they are undersized, it's not by all that much. For starters I'd lean more towards a bad combination of powder and bullet brand.

IMO, in a lot of ways, the best tool to check the throats for issues is the poorest choice as far as accuracy, a.. telescoping inside gauge. Pin gauges and slugging work great if you have a clear through, true throat. But if it's cut short, double chambered, out of round, or out of line, the pins won't tell you. Which reminds me, I would clean the cylinder well and visually inspect it to see that your throats are in line with your chambers. I had a customer send me a 625 a few years back where one chamber/throat was not. (don't ask me how, but it wasn't)

Edited July 21, 2008 by cas

[colbyjack]

i run lars BAC lube in my cast 200 gr. no problems here. -chris

[Toolguy]

You will want to slug the barrel, and not use plug gauges. The problem with plug gauges is that they only tell you the diameter of the bore at it's narrowest point. If you have a bore that it out-of-round (it does happen), you'll never know it. If this happens, you could have the same problem continue, and never figure out what's wrong. With a slug, all you need to do is mike the slug in a couple of different areas to know what's going on. Barrels have to be slugged anyway, so it's no big deal to do it all at once.

One other thing to watch for in the barrel is the barrel being choked down in the forcing cone area when it's installed in the frame. I had a couple of older S&Ws exhibit this. One was a 686+ that was choked down so hard that my range rod wouldn't fit in the last 1-1/2 in of the barrel. The other was an early 625. I think S&W's got a handle on that now problem though.

What are you saying? During this whole dissertation about barrels and forcing cones you really meant chamber throats?

[anachronism]

The forcing cone issue was stated in a separate paragraph beginning with "One other thing". I meant this to signal my intention to shift focus from the original paragraph, to another area. A "bore" is the inside of a hole, and I've already confessed to not being clear that I was talking about the bores of the cylinders chamber throats. I humbly apologize, it's been a long time since I had to write a paper for a grade, and I'm a bit rusty. I knew what I was talking about, but failed to communicate it clearly. Please forgive me.

You will want to slug the barrel, and not use plug gauges. The problem with plug gauges is that they only tell you the diameter of the bore at it's narrowest point. If you have a bore that it out-of-round (it does happen), you'll never know it. If this happens, you could have the same problem continue, and never figure out what's wrong. With a slug, all you need to do is mike the slug in a couple of different areas to know what's going on. Barrels have to be slugged anyway, so it's no big deal to do it all at once.

One other thing to watch for in the barrel is the barrel being choked down in the forcing cone area when it's installed in the frame. I had a couple of older S&Ws exhibit this. One was a 686+ that was choked down so hard that my range rod wouldn't fit in the last 1-1/2 in of the barrel. The other was an early 625. I think S&W's got a handle on that now problem though.

What are you saying? During this whole dissertation about barrels and forcing cones you really meant chamber throats?

[Toolguy]

I wasn't being critical, just trying to understand. I don't believe in or feel the need to make someone else feel small in order

to feel bigger by comparison. I try to treat the other person as equal. Please accept my respect and best regards.

[Taildraggerdave]

I was able to get to the chrono today and with the help of Smith Crazy (from S&W Forum) was able to get my 625 shooting without excessive leading. Smith Crazy sent me some bullets to try. They were just slightly larger than the Missouris and Silver States I tried previously as his would not go through the throats without being pushed. I loaded some up over 4.0 gr of Clays and they worked perfectly.

I had some trace amounts of lead in the throats and barrel but it cleaned up effortlessly. 100% improvement over what I had before. The combination of a slightly larger projectile and an additional .1 grain cured my problem. I may go back and bump my Clays load up a couple tenths and see what that does with the Missouris and Silver States. If that works well great. If not then it was the larger bullet that did the trick.

My chrono results were High:801fps, Low:763, Extreme Spread:38, Standard Deviation:11, and Avg:783

All in all, I was very happy with the result and thanks again to Smith Crazy for helping my figure out the problem.

Thanks for the replies here as well. Hopefully this info can help someone else out at another time.

Take care,

Dave

[recon215]

I was able to get to the chrono today and with the help of Smith Crazy (from S&W Forum) was able to get my 625 shooting without excessive leading. Smith Crazy sent me some bullets to try. They were just slightly larger than the Missouris and Silver States I tried previously as his would not go through the throats without being pushed. I loaded some up over 4.0 gr of Clays and they worked perfectly.

I had some trace amounts of lead in the throats and barrel but it cleaned up effortlessly. 100% improvement over what I had before. The combination of a slightly larger projectile and an additional .1 grain cured my problem. I may go back and bump my Clays load up a couple tenths and see what that does with the Missouris and Silver States. If that works well great. If not then it was the larger bullet that did the trick.

My chrono results were High:801fps, Low:763, Extreme Spread:38, Standard Deviation:11, and Avg:783

All in all, I was very happy with the result and thanks again to Smith Crazy for helping my figure out the problem.

Thanks for the replies here as well. Hopefully this info can help someone else out at another time.

Take care,

Dave

Ok, so what bullets did Smith Crazy send you to try? Inquiring minds want to know!

Thanks,

Steve

[Taildraggerdave]

Recon,

It was some bullets he casted himself. He felt that the larger OD, a larger grease groove, a more tailored bullet would cure it, so he sent some to me free to try out.

Here is a photo of some loaded and in moon clips.

[revchuck]

Recon,

It was some bullets he casted himself. He felt that the larger OD, a larger grease groove, a more tailored bullet would cure it, so he sent some to me free to try out.

Here is a photo of some loaded and in moon clips.

Dave - If he cast them himself, it's probable that he didn't use the same alloy as the store-bought bullets. When I was casting my own a long while ago, I used straight wheelweight metal, and never had a problem with leading with my .45s. Commercial alloys are about right for 9x19 and .357 Mag, but too hard for .45 ACP; ditto the lube they use.

[Ted Murphy]

Do you know of anyone who can machine the throats on a 625 if they are undersize?

TIA,

Ted

[Tom E]

Do you know of anyone who can machine the throats on a 625 if they are undersize?

TIA,

Ted

http://www.cylindersmith.com/