Growing the Sport!

[LChico]

Linda, I am a tad amazed that you are so quick to dismiss USPSA given the time you have invested in the the organization and your intense interest you displayed last year. USPSA is certainly not without its shortcomings but for those shooters who have a gripe, it is the only organization that has a method of addressing the complaints directly.

I do not see ANYTHING in my post that dismisses USPSA. Since I am still scoring & shooting my local USPSA pistol match, my local Steel Challenge match, as well as working in stats at three Level 2 matches, one Level 3 match, a National Steel Championship, and a major charity match (all under the USPSA umbrella), I'm amazed that you think I am no longer displaying "intense interest."

In my post, I believe I said that USPSA was the only organization that could or should push for long gun classifications & I believe I even cited a few benefits to doing so. I then expressed a personal opinion that non-USPSA matches would not be well served with classifications. Being interested & involved in USPSA does not strip me of my opinions & it does not require that I think everything the organization wants to do is neccessary or correct.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

Edited July 7, 2008 by LChico

[ccur]

+1 Linda

I love USPSA, but I get excited about all the other 3-gun matches as well.

Cheryl

[bigbrowndog]

its getting very hard to disagree without stepping beyond the guidelines of the forum, when people tout one organization/association over another.

it appears to me that the non-uspsa matches, although not an official organization, can grow the sport better simply because of the turn out they currently enjoy. Someone said that belonging to an association seems to be something that many new shooters avoid, they just want to shoot and have a good time without having to pay dues or membership. it seems it is much like belonging to a labor union, they feel that it does not represent them as well as they would like, that it caters to a certain elite few. much like my labor union does, it routinely supports candidates in political races that I would never support nor do the Rank and File of the union, however the powers that be, get political favors and so they back whoever they want, not who the rank and file want.

Guess what, I have to decide if the benefits of belonging to the association outweigh some of the negatives. this is exactly what some people see when they look at ANY association. so if they can avoid having to belong, to enjoy doing what they want to do, they will. In labor union speak they're called "SCABS", but we all enjoy doing the same thing, so why care if they want to belong to the association or any organization, as long as we both enjoy doing what we like.

the sport can be grown, regardless of which organization can or cannot do some things. We have to get the people out there first, and get them "addicted" then let them decide whether they want to join an organization, speaking for myself, if you tell me "I have to belong to an association" I'm going to resist until I can see the benefits outweigh the negatives.

Trapr

[TRUBL]

The problem with 3 Gun is that everyone is doing their own thing.

Absolutely incorrect!!!......I believe that is the thing that is allowing 3 gun to grow like it is!!! It's variety.....along with the simplicity!!

correct Trapr, I too, can't dive any further into this without going outside the rules of the forum.

[kurtm]

I hate to say this, but the very worst 3-gun/multi-gun matches I have ever attended have been the USPSA Nationals. I left the last one thinking that if USPSA wanted to kill 3-gun that would be the way to do it. Now I am not attacking USPSA, some of the finest matches I have shot have been some of the area matches, but most of them kind of do it like the "real" 3-gun matches, take the rules they like and ignore the ones they don't. An good example of this is the San Angelo scoring system, It was used for several years to score the Texas State Nationals. It certainly WASN'T USPSA Sanctioned but they did it anyway. Now USPSA uses it but several YEARS late. If this is the kind of support USPSA gives to 3-gun why would we want to unify under them? I agree the way to grow this sport is at the local level and believe me I have brought MANY new shooters to 3-gun, but it has to be fun and friendly, not handing them a 300 page rule book and then gleefuly penalising them when they don't know a "certain" rule. 1-2 pages is all you need. KurtM

[ccur]

The new guy I brought to BRM3G joined USPSA so he could shoot Area matches in 3 gun...one can begat another...

+1 on the last nationals Kurt...

Cheryl

[Religious Shooter]

I wanted to shoot HM in big matches. But the variety in the equipment rules for HM spoiled it for me.

I'm sticking to Tactical/TS. A division that has little to no variety. And in what little variety that Tactical/TS has ... it is inconsequential.

Too much variety killed my participation in HM.

[Religious Shooter]

As far as having classifications for the long guns... I think in the future it would be a good idea. But right now... no.

The base just isn't there to support it. USPSA needs to find out why there aren't more clubs out there shooting the USPSA's "brand" of multigun.

I think it was a great idea to incorporate IMGA style time plus scoring as it definitely speeded up the scoring process.

I think more advertisement that USPSA now has time plus scoring for 3Gun would help. And I think it would further help if time plus was allowed for Area or even National level matches as well. I think steps like that will help the base grow.

USPSA also has to recognize the tried and true practices that the other matches utilize. Case in point... the bagging/unbagging of firearms at the car. USPSA rules don't allow it. I don't believe the USPSA rules even gives the power to the MD's to say it is OK. Give that decision/power to the MD's.

Allow things to be consistent with the other matches. But of course don't stray too far from what made USPSA.

[cksh8me]

Keeping the startup costs in line would help. Limited and Scope Tac classes should have a 30 round mag limit. You can buy 30 round mags for 12 bucks or spend close to a hundred for a 45 round mag. You've just spent a bunch of money on your gear to come to a match and find out you need to spend some more to be competitive.

40 + rounds rifle hoser stages at a local match are over the top in my book. Ammo cost for that and what you get out of it just aren't worth it to me. If it's a bigger match that's different but not for club matches. I know some people live for those stages just my opinion. I paid $450 for 1k of 223 ammo. A 40 round hoser stage runs close to 20 bucks.

My local 3 gun match costs right at $100.00 in just ammo. Throw in entry $35.00 something to drink, eat, gas to get there and you have zero'd in on a 200 dollar bill. Just the facts no complaints.

I live in California and I don't see anybody promoting a 10 round class. Right now I think there is a small growth in 3 gun in California but it isn't going to keep growing and when I look at the age of the shooters (am I that old) you can see it dwindleing. Young people aren't going to shoot 3 gun in California for 2 reasons $$$ and being unable to get competitive equipment. There's not much you can do about the $$$ but give them a class where they can compete.

Improve the invironment. Look at the Steel Challenge it's like shooting on the moon. Plant trees put up more shade make it more appealing so you can bring a spectator. The more your club has to offer the better the turnout. This might sound stupid but put the Andy Gumps in the shade. They are bathrooms not saunas.

I don't think shooter classifications are keeping shooters away from this sport. I never gave that a thought when I started shooting it, and I haven't talked to anybody away from this forum that cared about it. I hear more about the different scoring methods. The scoring systems will never make everybody happy and what one person likes the other doesn't so you are going to have to live with the scoring system at the match you are shooting. Scoring systems don't keep the new shooter away either.

Lack of promotion and so little exposure doesn't help grow the sport. Not being very exciting to watch doesn't help either.

When a big match comes to town give the retailers something to advertise. Give them something to help get potiential customers in the store. Give them Team Springfield, Team JP, Team Benelli, Team Bushmaster, Team Remington, Team GG&G, Team Sports Drink, Team Sunglasses. You can't because they don't truely exist. Ok some of them might. But where are they? A match is 3 days long you get there on Thursday and sign up walk the course go out to dinner and start shooting on Friday. Where's the exposure? Give the local sporting goods/ gun store something to advertise. Help them promote the sport advertise for a week or two that Team whats his nutz is going to be at their store on Thursday from 6 to 8 signing autographs and handing out posters, showing you the gear, etc. They wear their team attire and promote the products. Pretty basic but richer sports than ours have been doing this for many many years.

I hope everybody has fun, doesn't spend a fortune, and can even make a buck or two.

Let the flames begin

Edited July 8, 2008 by cksh8me

[bigsaxdog]

Limited and Scope Tac classes should have a 30 round mag limit. +1 on that.....this has been one of my big problems, along with the pistol power factors.....mags over 30 put you in open. this seems pretty obvious to me, but none of the matches seem to want to support it. if they're gonna call it "tactical" class, 45 rd. mags are hardly practical......

[Charles Bond]

There a several good ideas flowing here but it seems that we almost always come back to rules. No 30+ rds in a mag for limited and scope tac? I could easily go for that but if the barrier to more growth in the sport of 3G is rules, perhaps we need to review the wisdom of a central set of rules? Shooters who have all the normal stuff might decide to avoid going to the XXX Match just because the match allows BETA mags in their division and the shooter does not want to have to lay out more money to avoid being at a disadvantge at the match

USPSA certainly has not done everything right and that includes some 3 gun nationals. If we classify in rilfe, we are going to have to use ranges shorter than 300 yards given most ranges do not have the ability to shoot further but that does not mean that longer range shooting will or should disappear from 3 Gun. And rules are not going to be to everyone's individual preferences but the question is how to grow the sport and the newbie shooters in 3 G are just simply going to be more comfortable going from match to match and learning the skills without having to worry about rules shifiting from one match to another.

[bigbrowndog]

Far too many people get hung up on what equipment they NEED!!!!!!! the people that practice and have the correct mindset for improvement when they practice and compete, will always do better.

Limiting mags to 30 rounds will not make them more competitive!!!

It will not get more new shooters in the game!!!!!

You (a shooter) does not need an optic to compete in 3 gun!!!

You do not need a 1200.00 shotgun!!!!

You do not need a 11500.00 rifle!!!

Too often we place unnecessary stress on new shooters by telling them or inadvertently showing them that they NEED high end equipment to shoot the sport.

I started a topic a while back about what most people started this sport with, and most of us did not have extremely expensive equipment.

trapr

[M ammo]

Stop the presses!

For those of you that, want to have a National Organization for your 3 Gun needs.

IDPA is coming out with it’s own format for 3 Gun.

Jim M ammo

[M ammo]

Far too many people get hung up on what equipment they NEED!!!!!!! the people that practice and have the correct mindset for improvement when they practice and compete, will always do better.

Limiting mags to 30 rounds will not make them more competitive!!!

It will not get more new shooters in the game!!!!!

You (a shooter) does not need an optic to compete in 3 gun!!!

You do not need a 1200.00 shotgun!!!!

You do not need a 11500.00 rifle!!!

Too often we place unnecessary stress on new shooters by telling them or inadvertently showing them that they NEED high end equipment to shoot the sport.

I started a topic a while back about what most people started this sport with, and most of us did not have extremely expensive equipment.

trapr

I hope I didn’t break a rule,, I'll have to re read the guidelines.

Trapr You are right.

I shot my first 3 Gun with an M1 Garand. A borrowed 12 GA and a Glock 21.

Later with an 870, and an AK and a .45

Now I’m old. I need the scope, and Advil!

But have had the time to save up for better toys and tools.

[bigsaxdog]

on a fast 40 round stage, you can't tell me it's not an advantage to run a 45 rd. dpms mag against a guy that's gotta do a reload......now i'm not saying the big mags don't puke alot, but if it works, i'd definitely use it. i don't have one, might get one though......i advocate rules to limit the equipment race, if you gotta have all the toys, shoot open......

[cksh8me]

Being competitive means different things to different people. For most of the shooters out there you want to be competitive against your friends and people in your squad. You squad up with somebody you don't know and see he or she is at your ability level then he or she stuffs in a beta or 45 round mag and runs the stage with no reload. You being a new shooter see you are at a disadvantage. Being an old guy I have all the "stuff" and I see the looks and get ribbed for using big mags when they have to do a reload.

Practice is more important for a good finish I'll grant you but when you are first getting into the sport after you get past the Garand, Mossberg start you see how much it is going to cost. Have you seen the price of gas lots of shooters new and shooters that have been shooting for years won't have the disposable income to buy the extras that they feel they need to be competitive. If the mags larger than 30 rounds don't help as much then why allow them?

Perception is reality.

Are big mags going to stop somebody from shooting. the scoring system, the match rules, equipment rules, costs, locations going to stop people from shooting not by themselves but start stacking them together and they might.

When I started shooting I had to travel over 300 miles round trip to a monthly match. That got old for my friends real quick and they wouldn't go. Now there is a match 40 miles away and they go.

Edited July 8, 2008 by cksh8me

[bigbrowndog]

I have not seen a stage in the last 3 years where having a Beta was a "distinct" advantage, because of round count. There are normally in WELL designed stages places to make a reload that offset any advantage the Beta will give you, however you will need to practice your reload. ( i base this on the fact that not all the top shooters chose to use a beta, even though they had one)

I also do not recall a 40 rd stage at a match, that didn't allow for a reload to be made somewhere in the course of fire, that wouldn't cost you time. (i think i said that right)????

all your concerns about having a large capacity mag are eliminated by having a good stage designed, by a good stage designer.

All you have to do is look at the upper HM times for stages and compare them to the middle times for tactical and that should show you that magazine capacity does not have as much impact on a stage as some of you think. You will have to be able to look at a stage and figure out where you lose little to no time for a reload, and you will have to be able to hit your targets with as little ammo as possible, but there are ways to save time on a stage and they are no secret.

all this is off topic and I apologize, but it is in attempt to explain why beginning shooters do not NEED large cap mags (over 30rd)

Trapr

[M ammo]

Being competitive means different things to different people. For most of the shooters out there you want to be competitive against your friends and people in your squad. You squad up with somebody you don't know and see he or she is at your ability level then he or she stuffs in a beta or 45 round mag and runs the stage with no reload. You being a new shooter see you are at a disadvantage. Being an old guy I have all the "stuff" and I see the looks and get ribbed for using big mags when they have to do a reload.

Practice is more important for a good finish I'll grant you but when you are first getting into the sport after you get past the Garand, Mossberg start you see how much it is going to cost. Have you seen the price of gas lots of shooters new and shooters that have been shooting for years won't have the disposable income to buy the extras that they feel they need to be competitive. If the mags larger than 30 rounds don't help as much then why allow them?

Perception is reality.

Are big mags going to stop somebody from shooting. the scoring system, the match rules, equipment rules, costs, locations going to stop people from shooting not by themselves but start stacking them together and they might.

When I started shooting I had to travel over 300 miles round trip to a monthly match. That got old for my friends real quick and they wouldn't go. Now there is a match 40 miles away and they go.

Ok another plug for the 3 Gun book I have not finished.

One goal of the book is to bring 3 Gun to more places so that you will not have to cross the country to shoot a match.

As for equipment. You can keep many things fair in the stage description.

I do it all the time.

The guys at our club have come to love to hate me.

I think this month we only have one or two stages that you start with the gun loaded.

You have to do that at the start buzzer.

Talk about the guy that practices doing well. If you don’t know how to work your equipment. Our July match here in Copperas Cove Texas, will hurt your feelings.

It can be done.

Jim M ammo

[LChico]

Stop the presses!

For those of you that, want to have a National Organization for your 3 Gun needs.

IDPA is coming out with it’s own format for 3 Gun.

Jim M ammo

I was aware they were trying to develop rules for multi-gun (see Forum Thread about IDPA Proposed Multi gun Rules - it makes this one look positively jolly). I was not aware that they were close to finalizing anything. There is no mention of it on the IDPA website.

I have worked one match under "sort of" IDPA rules (to be fair, these were made up by the event organizers, because IDPA had no official rules at the time). I was not too happy about the large amount of arbitrary penalties, and especially penalties for non-shooting behavior. In order to get the competitors to drag dummies to a specific location, or to stay within fault lines, or to carry boxes to certain tables, or even to engage targets in a specific order - we had 'additional' penalties. The end result was that a procedural error on one stage was a 5 sec penalty, & on some stages it was 10, 15 or 20 seconds. It made scoring the match a mess.

In addition, accuracy was a priority, with 2 hits required per target, and the equivalent of 2 C hits (two -1) required to neutralize a target. The equivalent of 2 D hits (two -3) would get a Failure to Neutralize penalty of 5 seconds. Essentially, 2 D (two -3 hits) got you an 8 second penalty (3 seconds for the hits on the target & 5 seconds because of the FTN penalty). . . and people think we are being rough at FB3G!

Perhaps this is all addressed in their new Multi gun rules. Is there a link to this?

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[Mike P]

There is no reason to limit magazine capacity. There are lots of ways to negate the advantage of long or short, or fat, or wide magazines. It can and should be done through good stage design. Movement, oddball shotting postions, challenging barricades, etc. can all be used to good effect. Or, just write a mandatory reload into the stage description.

The mag capacity subject was beat to death last year by the way.

[Merlin Orr]

It's all about - Let's change - let's limit - let's do something the "other way" or play with "other rules." If limiting - in the rules - mags to a 30 round cap would actually do one little damned thing to bring in new shooters I would say fine. But the sad truth is that it would not change a damned thing one. Not one. If any person wants to shoot 3 Gun they can shoot 3 Gun. Acting as if the reason you don't shoot is because I want to spend $85.00 on a 45 round mag is crap. There is not a major match I have been to in several years that has not cost 4 or 5 hundred in gas just to get to. Burned up and gone, contributing to nothing but global warming. One 45 round mag will last for more years than the shooters old enough to afford to play this game. Another poster alluded to a set of rules used by another shooting organization that limits mag capacity and equipment to strict standards. If you want exact well stated limits and being told how, when and with what to shoot. That is the one for you.

The argument that shooters "can't be expected to remember a matches rules" is, IMO, crap. The invalidity of idea that we should go with universal rules is further shown by the rules that are being presented as the "future and savior of 3 Gun" are the least popular and least attended of all the different variations currently being shot.

If you don't have the horsepower to remember the rules you are not a good choice to own an gun and I really hope you aren't handling one around me.

I know opinions are like a**holes - this is one by one.

[cksh8me]

Hey I'm not married to the mag limit idea I have everything I need. Somebody said stage design can negate the advantage of a large mag or put in a mandatory mag change ok. If you put in a mag change then you don't need a over 30 so why have it. If the regular match you attend doesn't design a stage to negate the advantage of the mag....... then I guess it is your advantage to have one.

It is the limited class limit on pistol mag limit on shotgun rounds no limit on rifle rounds. I guess it the sort of limited class.

I agree this is off topic and won't do a thing to bring new shooters to a match. After you get them there it's keeping them that matters most.

Edited July 8, 2008 by cksh8me

[M ammo]

Stop the presses!

For those of you that, want to have a National Organization for your 3 Gun needs.

IDPA is coming out with it’s own format for 3 Gun.

Jim M ammo

I was aware they were trying to develop rules for multi-gun (see Forum Thread about IDPA Proposed Multi gun Rules - it makes this one look positively jolly). I was not aware that they were close to finalizing anything. There is no mention of it on the IDPA website.

I have worked one match under "sort of" IDPA rules (to be fair, these were made up by the event organizers, because IDPA had no official rules at the time). I was not too happy about the large amount of arbitrary penalties, and especially penalties for non-shooting behavior. In order to get the competitors to drag dummies to a specific location, or to stay within fault lines, or to carry boxes to certain tables, or even to engage targets in a specific order - we had 'additional' penalties. The end result was that a procedural error on one stage was a 5 sec penalty, & on some stages it was 10, 15 or 20 seconds. It made scoring the match a mess.

In addition, accuracy was a priority, with 2 hits required per target, and the equivalent of 2 C hits (two -1) required to neutralize a target. The equivalent of 2 D hits (two -3) would get a Failure to Neutralize penalty of 5 seconds. Essentially, 2 D (two -3 hits) got you an 8 second penalty (3 seconds for the hits on the target & 5 seconds because of the FTN penalty). . . and people think we are being rough at FB3G!

Perhaps this is all addressed in their new Multi gun rules. Is there a link to this?

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

"""""""Linda

No link yet from IDPA.

I first heard it on the Shooting gallery Pod cast.

I called them today. And started asking questions.

They are working on it.

I don’t know if it will be a flavor the masses will like or not.

I’ll hold of talking about what my conversation was. Seeing that would start controversy and they haven’t gotten the rules posted yet.

I did make a suggestion about engagement rules. As per the less rules the better.

Let people solve the shooting problem themselves.

We all have opinions. As do I!!""""""""""""

3 Gun has not been standardized and that is OK. Some things do not need a governing body.

If you want one, now their will be two national governing bodies for 3 Gun.

But if you don’t like one flavor of 3 Gun try another.

If you can’t find a match close to home.

Start your own.

I did. Been happy ever since!

[ccur]

When a big match comes to town give the retailers something to advertise. Give them something to help get potiential customers in the store. Give them Team Springfield, Team JP, Team Benelli, Team Bushmaster, Team Remington, Team GG&G, Team Sports Drink, Team Sunglasses. You can't because they don't truely exist. Ok some of them might. But where are they? A match is 3 days long you get there on Thursday and sign up walk the course go out to dinner and start shooting on Friday. Where's the exposure? Give the local sporting goods/ gun store something to advertise. Help them promote the sport advertise for a week or two that Team whats his nutz is going to be at their store on Thursday from 6 to 8 signing autographs and handing out posters, showing you the gear, etc. They wear their team attire and promote the products. Pretty basic but richer sports than ours have been doing this for many many years.

What a neat idea...It is a real way to get people interested in at least watching a match and then if you hand out literature on the local matches, so much the better. If you actually have some equipment they could borrow, you could advertise that.

Thanks for the idea!

Cheryl

[38superman]

I agree with Flex that expanding into multigun tends to attract shooters that are already involved.

If you want to get new shooters, there is a deep pool of potential members out there.

We just find the best way to tap into it.

There are literally millions of handgun owners and many of them have no idea USPSA even exists.

They buy a gun for defense or just cause they like to shoot.

They occasionally punch paper at the nearest indoor range or they take their blasters outdoors where ever they can find a place to plink.

Get them to one match and they are usually hooked.

I know because I was one of those guys.

I discovered action pistol when I went to a charity match sponsored and publicized by the local police dept.

That got me to a local club and an IPSC career.

Something local clubs could do would be a membership drive.

Print flyers and place them in local gun shops.

Encourage club members to bring a buddy.

Better yet give them some incentive.

Bring a new shooter to a match and your name goes in the hat for a gun give away at the end of the year.

How to grow the sport is and interesting question.

That begs the question, grow into what? How much growth would you envision?

20,000 members? 100,000? Where do you want it to go?

I think we'd all like to see the sport become more mainstream and a little less fringe.

But...

There are only so many ranges available to us.

A lot of major matches are filled to capacity and some such as Nats and Single Stack Classic have waiting lists.

The local guys can always make room for more but there are self limiting factors.

When you have so many shooters that every club match has huge squads and takes all day to get five stages in, you will start to push people away instead of drawing more in.

Tls

Edited July 8, 2008 by 38superman