rvb Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 (edited) Ford owns Lincoln, I have a Ford, I should get a Lincoln for free. Does Ford have something similar on their webpage to what USPSA has on theirs? "USPSA is a non-profit membership association. " ie can Ford say "Ford is a non-profit membership association." That makes a BIG difference in people's perception of the "product" they are buying and how the company uses "their" money (ie just takes it for profit vs using it FOR them). When as a Ford owner I can vote for Ford's president and set the direction of the company, the analogy will be more similar. While I understand your point and personally agree WITH you, I think the analogy is very far from apples to apples. I guess that's my only point in this post. -rvb Edited August 26, 2008 by rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 Well, it seems that the way that the SC will "pay for itself," is to extract additional monies from the folks whose money bought the SC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EZ Bagger Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 Nope, won't join. Just don't do it often enough to warrant the cost. If there were local matches or when I'm old and can't move maybe it will offer more appeal than it does now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 I'll become a member of Steel Challenge because I feel it's important for me to help the organization. Other folks may not feel that way and that is their right. I think USPSA may be missing the boat though. There needs to be some benefit to being a member of the SCSA. Right now I can shoot steel locally with the two groups within an hour that shoot steel matches. They can even set up the exact Steel Challenge stages every month if they want to. I can shoot any regional, national or world championship steel matches without being a member. The results page on the SCSA website shows a grand total of three matches from this year. Like I said, I'm going to be a member of SCSA, at least for a few years because I really think we need to support the organization. However, at some point USPSA and SCSA are going to have to give me something for my membership money. Don't know what that would be, magazine, classification system or??? But taking money with no benefit in return is not a good plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBudd Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 If you take advantage of the services provided, you oughta help pay for those services. What services? The classification system? Nope - there isn't going to be one. A rule book - It's steel, come on. What am I missing? I still don't know why a club would bother affiliating to run Steel Challenge. The privilege of sending in an activity fee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 If you take advantage of the services provided, you oughta help pay for those services. What services? The classification system? Nope - there isn't going to be one. A rule book - It's steel, come on. What am I missing? I still don't know why a club would bother affiliating to run Steel Challenge. The privilege of sending in an activity fee? Eric: Steel Challenge polcy and how we will run it on the local, state, and regional levels is not yet established by USPSA. I understand your position as set out above but think of it in a different manner. What could or should SC offer to its membership that you believe would attract you and other members to join? Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 Grow the base. No fees at all...for the next three to five years (call it a waiver, if need be). Grow the base. Current USPSA affiliated clubs...no fees for the club for the next three years. Grow the base. Use the network of USPSA clubs to support that. Grow the base. Get Steel challenge into clubs that may not (or will not/can not) host USPSA matches. Grow the base. You can shoot SC at small clubs, just a pistol bay or two is enough...and 5 or 10 pieces of steel (poppers set not to fall will work). IDPA clubs, they can shoot SC. Put out some literature that sells the benefits of SC to local ranges (regardless if they shoot pistol matches now or not). Grow the base. When the three years (or five, if need be) is up...charge the club a SMALL (like $50) annual fee for the use of the name. Forget memberships to shoot (people don't want to pay to be members of eveything...it's too much). Just charge a mission count fee after a club has been established, and make it cheap. A dollar a shooter is doable. Two-fifty isn't. (Do the math here. Our local club charges $10....8 matches a year...20 some shooters per match) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 While I am rolling and have an ear... I was likely one of the first Match Director types that really wanted to run a major SC match when this purchase first came about. I won't do so as long as the requirement to run the 8 stages from the big match is the only choice. If you want to make that a requirement for the equivalent of a Level III match, then OK. Give me the equivalent of a Level II match as an option...with options. Let me Match Direct...as a Match Director. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy_fuentes Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 + 1 Flex. In South Louisiana we have a monthly six stage steel match that is challenging. Hm, we shoot each stage five times and throw out the highest time on each stage. Now explain to me why we need to join and pay a fee? Thanks, Buddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBudd Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 (edited) Eric: Steel Challenge policy and how we will run it on the local, state, and regional levels is not yet established by USPSA. I understand your position as set out above but think of it in a different manner. What could or should SC offer to its membership that you believe would attract you and other members to join? Charles Charles, The riddle of Steel Challenge is that the rules are both simple and widely understood. There are clubs that shoot steel matches. We have a league here in Eastern PA that includes 4-5 clubs and runs 8-10 matches a year which includes the club where I run USPSA. I have not seen benefit that would encourage my club to affiliate and (possibly) send in activity fees. As a (primarily) USPSA shooter I don't see any reason to join SCSS when I just shoot local matches. I think the best way to attract both clubs and members would be to offer a classification system for different divisions. (Use the official steel challenge stages. We already know what the 100% times are. Since the stages are the same, that should be the easy part.) The biggest problem I see with the local leagues is that, if they don't shoot heads-up, the classification of shooters is a hit-and-miss kinda thing. Having an equitable/standard way to class shooters would be a good thing. I also think a scoring/registration program like EZ WinScore would be a great perk to encourage clubs to affiliate. I also think the the activity fee will need to be lower. From what I have seen, most local steel matches are cheaper the USPSA matches ($10 vs $20-$25) so a $3/shooter fee isn't going to sell. $1/shooter for the classification system seems more fair. I'd suggest to control costs that Front Sight include both USPSA and Steel Challenge and that it be sent to each member of either organization (cross-pollination is good). Since you only need 1 magazine, there should be a discount for members who join both organizations. I think possibly the biggest advantage to have Steel Challenge and USPSA as part of the same organization is to use steel to feed USPSA. Steel is easier for newer shooters and is more approachable. Also, it is cheaper/easier to get started with a 22 and 5 magazines. I just think the talk of cost without discussing the bang-for-the-buck is premature. Regards, Eric Edited August 28, 2008 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 I see steel as a great entry level to grow USPSA membership. Steel shooters become USPSA shooters. That's where it's at. I can point to a dozen USPSA members that came up through shooting local steel matches. There are 3+ monthly steel matches that have been going on for as many as 20 years around here. I MD one of them most of the time. We are extremely unlikely to see any attendance boost through charging shooters more money and sending some of it up to Sedro. We have a scoring program. We do divisions (including several non-USPSA ones). We haven't messed with classifications, but if you've got a USPSA one (or IDPA or SASS, etc), that will show on the scoresheet. It would be really easy to assign classifications based on the well-published 'world records', should we feel a need. All this we did ourselves without paying anybody anything. Far, far too many people and clubs have kept the steel flame alight for years independently to be saying "you have to pay us $1.50 per shooter now, because we own it". I'm a Life USPSA member and I would still feel it as an insult if USPSA were to do that. I'm hard-pressed to think of enough benefits to make it worthwhile all on it's own. That said, we did affiliate the club with SCSA a while back, not because it got us anything in particular (we were considering a 'big match'), but because it felt like the 'right thing to do', and $50 or so was reasonable. I've shot the Steel Challenge "World Championship" for years. Never been an individual SCSA member. The discount on the entry fee was less than the membership cost, and that was the only bennie, so it wasn't worth it. Same for the 'US Nationals' Steel shoot. I suspect a vast number of steel shooters are like this and like it that way. Steel shooters become USPSA shooters. That's where it's at. Only one membership needed. If they decide to remain steel shooters forever, then that's good too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 What Shred said +1! my club paid Steel Challenge membership for the past 9 years because it was the rite thing to do. And I will send in club membership again Jamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 According to the Steel Challenge website, member clubs will be expected to submit mission count fees to Sedro for Tier I matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Here's the currently posted membership schedule: SCSA is a membership association and offers the following membership options. SCSA Annual dues $40, $50 foreign. Dual USPSA / SCSA Annual Dues $60, $70 Foreign Annual associate dues $25, $35 foreign Dual USPSA / SCSA Annual Dues $35, $45 Foreign Three-year dues $105, $135 foreign. Dual USPSA / SCSA Three-year Dues $160, $200 Foreign Three-year associate dues $75, $105 foreign. Dual USPSA / SCSA Three-year associate dues $115, $155 Foreign Five-year dues $175, $225 foreign. Dual USPSA / SCSA Five-year Dues $265, $375 Foreign Five-year associate dues are $125, $185 foreign. Dual USPSA / SCSA Five-year associate dues are $190, Foreign $280 Life memberships are $500, $600 foreign USPSA Life members may purchase a SCSA Life Membership at 50% discount Benefactor memberships are $1,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 According to the Steel Challenge website, member clubs will be expected to submit mission count fees to Sedro for Tier I matches. What is the definition of a Tier 1 shoot in the past the Mission count was only for larger shoots , like if I wanted to do a state or regional shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 According to the Steel Challenge website, member clubs will be expected to submit mission count fees to Sedro for Tier I matches. What is the definition of a Tier 1 shoot in the past the Mission count was only for larger shoots , like if I wanted to do a state or regional shoot. Tier 1 is anything not a Tier 2 (75+ shooters, $2.50 ea) or Tier 3 (100+ shooters, $5/ea) match. SCSA clubs agree:1) To abide with the terms and conditions of SCSA affiliation as set forth in the affiliation application 2) To hold Steel Shooting contests under SCSA rules and policies as specified in published SCSA rules 3) To return to SCSA all SCSA licensed or produced manuals, rules, property, software, and merchandise upon demand from SCSA or upon failure of the club to re-affiliate with SCSA at some future date 4) To reserve the use of SCSA’s images and intellectual property for SCSA competitions and that the appropriate activity fees shall be paid for any match employing such images or property, or match that competitors might reasonably assume to be a SCSA event 5) That they understand activity-reporting procedures, will follow SCSA policy and will report the results of all SCSA matches in a timely manner 6) That they understand failure to follow the rules or procedures will result in revocation of SCSA affiliation Activity Fees All SCSA matches conducted by SCSA affiliated clubs will incur a $1.50 per shooter activity fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 According to the Steel Challenge website, member clubs will be expected to submit mission count fees to Sedro for Tier I matches. What is the definition of a Tier 1 shoot in the past the Mission count was only for larger shoots , like if I wanted to do a state or regional shoot. Tier 1 is anything not a Tier 2 (75+ shooters, $2.50 ea) or Tier 3 (100+ shooters, $5/ea) match. SCSA clubs agree:1) To abide with the terms and conditions of SCSA affiliation as set forth in the affiliation application 2) To hold Steel Shooting contests under SCSA rules and policies as specified in published SCSA rules 3) To return to SCSA all SCSA licensed or produced manuals, rules, property, software, and merchandise upon demand from SCSA or upon failure of the club to re-affiliate with SCSA at some future date 4) To reserve the use of SCSA’s images and intellectual property for SCSA competitions and that the appropriate activity fees shall be paid for any match employing such images or property, or match that competitors might reasonably assume to be a SCSA event 5) That they understand activity-reporting procedures, will follow SCSA policy and will report the results of all SCSA matches in a timely manner 6) That they understand failure to follow the rules or procedures will result in revocation of SCSA affiliation Activity Fees All SCSA matches conducted by SCSA affiliated clubs will incur a $1.50 per shooter activity fee. HOw about if I just send in 50% 80% of what is left over at the end of the year after I pay club cost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 It did not require membership before to shoot it and for the limited amount I will shoot it, I feel no need to join. I have enough people with their hand in my pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBudd Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 So, let me get this straight, my club should affiliate (send SCSA $) so I can send pay activity fees (send SCSA $) which amount to 15% of gross revenue for the match for the privilege of running a match that we have been doing for the last 5 years? What a deal! Am I the only one who just doesn't see how this is going to work? Regards, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 So, let me get this straight, my club should affiliate (send SCSA $) so I can send pay activity fees (send SCSA $) which amount to 15% of gross revenue for the match for the privilege of running a match that we have been doing for the last 5 years? What a deal! Am I the only one who just doesn't see how this is going to work? Regards, Eric Yeah, this is the problem the die-hards that have been holding their own steel matches forever have to deal with-- affilliate with SCSA and be required to send the $ or don't bother and just keep on keepin on. At least with the old way, clubs could throw SCSA $50 and drive on. I suspect what our club will vote for, and USPSA probably won't like it. I'm all for USPSA, but I don't think this is a good way to go about integrating the existing steel clubs that basically kept the sport alive at the local level for so long. FWIW, USPSA implies the stages are 'trademarked', but A) there's no filings on anything but the SC logo at the US Patent and Trademark Office and I doubt the stage layouts themselves are trademark-able; even the names of the stages may be marginal. Patent protection is long gone.. I suppose they could try for copyright, but that too will be a toughie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 An idea has been percolating in the back of my head to use a couple of SC stages each week as a way of having a weekday league shoot of sorts and to give our junior a way to practice, but this activity fee thing is a load of crap. That's one of the things that has kept us away from USPSA. Our range fee is so high, we can only collect $5 from each shooter. How do you meet expenses (not the least of which is buying expensive steel targets) and pay an activity fee (for no good reason) out of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 So .. ..never mind ....after 16 years I am getting just a bit worn down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 So .. ..never mind ....after 16 years I am getting just a bit worn down If my idea ever hatches... I will. Go outlaw that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy_fuentes Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 Sherd, why the heck would clubs want to throw fifty bucks or fifty cents, for that matter, to the SCSA? For what? Because they are standing on the corner, with a sign, saying they will work for steel? They are using our money and making deals that we are too unimportant to to be advised of, not to mention too dumb to understand. The BOD secretly made a deal to use our money to buy an organization that we didn't need. They could have set up their own steel courses and called it USPSA Steel or anything. What is a name worth? Not much in this kind of business, we are not talking McDonalds here. The folks that are going to shoot it will shoot it no matter what it is called. THEY are the ones that will bring new members. Not the name. When questioned on the deal and how much was paid, they didn't want to disclose it to the members. They said it would PAY FOR ITSELF IN FIVE YEARS. Yep, with our money again. Sorry guys, but I feel that we were taken advantage of for a brother-in-law deal and I don't like it. Buddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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