Shots dropping when going faster.

[lugnut]

I've been shooting IDPA/USPSA for a couple years now. I guess I'm about average shooting- SS in IDPA for SSP. I shot CDP for a while but have switched to a G34 now. The gun is completely stock except to the Dawson sights and polished action. I can do a decent one hole at say 21 feet slow fire and can shoot fine groups slow fire at long distances. As I increase my speed of course the spread gets bigger but the holes drop and slightly left (right hand shooter). Rushing head shots cause the rounds to be low and sometimes miss and go into the body. Same for body shots. Rarely do my shots go high at speed and if they do it's because I didn't let the front sight drop enough/prepped the trigger too aggresively. I am aware of many potential causes- yanking trigger, milking the grip or my timing is off (I don't think I have a flinch). My hands are slightly smaller than normal.

The problem is I can't quite determine the exact cause(s) but worse I can't find exercises that will improve this. Dry firing doesn't seem to help. I'm trying to emphasize a stronger weak hand grip but to do this consistantly is taking some time.... as I think I resort to my "normal" grip when shooting at speed (subconciously). Grip/stance is typical of other high level shooters I've observed (thumbs forward, etc.) although I think I could rotate my weak hand so that my thumb is more forward.

I searched and found some stuff but was looking for ways to isolate and fix the problem. Thanks!

[Joe4d]

It's called trigger wack, do you reload ? If so load up some dummy rounds with no primer or powder, mix em up with your regular rounds and load mags without looking, then head to the range and shoot double taps and controlled pairs depending on range. Might be a real eye opener watching the muzzel dip win it goes click.

[lugnut]

Yes- I do reload and haven't used dummy rounds in a while. I do suspect it's wacking. Once it's identified what does one do to eliminate this? And I assume even with a dummy round- some noticable movement will still occur- but after the trigger drops?

[Jake Di Vita]

It's called trigger wack, do you reload ? If so load up some dummy rounds with no primer or powder, mix em up with your regular rounds and load mags without looking, then head to the range and shoot double taps and controlled pairs depending on range. Might be a real eye opener watching the muzzel dip win it goes click.

That's actually one of the worst tests you can do. There is a difference between flinching (before the shot) and compensating for recoil (after the shot) that this drill doesn't take into consideration.

The problem is you are moving the gun before the bullet is out of the barrel. Your only choice of action is to see more. If your sights are on target at the instant the bullet leaves the barrel, it's impossible to miss.

There is no quick fix. This is something you need to sort out through practice. Step one is to make sure you don't have a flinch. There are several threads on here that go into good detail of fixing that.

[tpcdvc]

It's called trigger wack, do you reload ? If so load up some dummy rounds with no primer or powder, mix em up with your regular rounds and load mags without looking, then head to the range and shoot double taps and controlled pairs depending on range. Might be a real eye opener watching the muzzel dip win it goes click.

That's actually one of the worst tests you can do. There is a difference between flinching (before the shot) and compensating for recoil (after the shot) that this drill doesn't take into consideration.

The problem is you are moving the gun before the bullet is out of the barrel. Your only choice of action is to see more. If your sights are on target at the instant the bullet leaves the barrel, it's impossible to miss.

There is no quick fix. This is something you need to sort out through practice. Step one is to make sure you don't have a flinch. There are several threads on here that go into good detail of fixing that.

+1

Yep, I totally agree. You have to see your sights lift on every shot. This takes discipline but it is the only way to get better and fix the problem you are having. Also, when you don't see your sights lift you can't call your shots and you can't drive the gun to the next target nearly as fast. And although it may seem slow it is by far faster. You probably hear folks say going fast seems slow. This is one of the reasons. You are in total control of your gun and your mind and that feels a little slow sometimes. But your accuracy and speed will both increase.

Edited June 22, 2008 by tpcdvc

[G-ManBart]

It's called trigger wack, do you reload ? If so load up some dummy rounds with no primer or powder, mix em up with your regular rounds and load mags without looking, then head to the range and shoot double taps and controlled pairs depending on range. Might be a real eye opener watching the muzzel dip win it goes click.

That's actually one of the worst tests you can do. There is a difference between flinching (before the shot) and compensating for recoil (after the shot) that this drill doesn't take into consideration.

Why would you consider that a bad drill? If he's not doing anything wrong, the gun won't move. If he's anticipating, it will be very obvious. There's no downside to the drill. Might not solve the problem, but it's not going to hurt anything. R,

[lugnut]

Wow- and I thought I was doing ok after the last couple years. It's just getting harder.

Shot a bunch of rounds today and this is what I found out. (mostly slow fire while chronoing some rounds)

Slow fire I am not "flinching" as the bullets are going right where I want them. I'm sure I see the front sight as the gun goes bang. However... I know I have a quick "blink" right after the gun goes off.... I know this because if I focus on the front sight while squeezing the trigger I see the front sight jump up... blink.... and then I see the front sight coming back into the rear notch. I dont' see "everything" but I do see sparks/flash- maybe not always. I also tried firming up my weak hand grip and it seemed to help as I was able to hit an 8" plate pretty quickly at 25 yds. (quick for me anyway).

So.... when shooting faster... Oh well I'm on a long journey and not so sure if I'm flinching or just pulling the trigger agressively while milking.

I'm going to double plug next practice to see if I can "see" more. I need to start calling ALL my shots. Man this shit is hard as hell.

[PistolPete]

Dave,

You need to spend some time shooting with me. As you speed up when shooting your fine motor skills go out the window. This is the hardest part of our sport. Shooting low and left is the most common issue for right handed shooters. Do you have your own USPSA or IDPA targets that you can practice with? If you do when you go to the range to practice you need to forget about your speed for a bit (while shooting not while doing everything else) and make sure you need to see exactly what is needed before pressing the trigger. You want to see your front sight lift and return in the notch. When doing transitions between targets your gun should follow your eyes.

If doing doubles on a USPSA or IDPA target you need to take two sight pictures, one for each shot, and not just one sight picture with two trigger whacks. One of the problems with shooting on Wed. nights is that everyone is so concerned with time an it effects your accuracy. We all try to go way too fast forgetting about shooting all A's. Accuracy is the most important element in this game.

Next time we meet up we should do it on a different day than Wed. That way we can just work on specific problem areas. Make a list of things you need to improve on and we can start from there.

Pete

[lugnut]

Pete- thanks for the offer. You KNOW I'll take you up on it once you have free time. On my double shots I try (an usually do) see two sight pictures before transitioning. I say usually because I'm certain on close shots I don't really worry about a sight picture.

The more I think about it the more I realize that when I shoot well at speed I see a great sight picture. It's when I push myself that I don't. Hmmm. I still need to find a way to see everything.

[Jake Di Vita]

Why would you consider that a bad drill? If he's not doing anything wrong, the gun won't move. If he's anticipating, it will be very obvious. There's no downside to the drill. Might not solve the problem, but it's not going to hurt anything. R,

Because if you're shooting correctly, the gun will always dip. We compensate for recoil on just about every shot in USPSA because of the speed we are required to shoot.

[G-ManBart]

Why would you consider that a bad drill? If he's not doing anything wrong, the gun won't move. If he's anticipating, it will be very obvious. There's no downside to the drill. Might not solve the problem, but it's not going to hurt anything. R,

Because if you're shooting correctly, the gun will always dip. We compensate for recoil on just about every shot in USPSA because of the speed we are required to shoot.

Yeah, that's true for someone with solid fundamentals who's shooting fast or even reasonably fast splits, but this issue is a back to basics problem. I spend a LOT of time helping LEOs fix this and slowing them down, throwing some dummy rounds in there so they can SEE it, and then slowly building up the speed seems to be the most reliable way to fix it. The other is to tell them to shoot three shots and suddenly the second one isn't low and left (well, not all the time, but frequently). This is time for him to go back to basics, shoot slow, let the gun recoil and return by itself, and slowly build up the speed while learning to track the front sight.

[GmanCdp]

Dry firing doesn't seem to help. I'm trying to emphasize a stronger weak hand grip but to do this consistantly is taking some time.... as I think I resort to my "normal" grip when shooting at speed (subconciously). Grip/stance is typical of other high level shooters I've observed (thumbs forward, etc.) although I think I could rotate my weak hand so that my thumb is more forward.

i shoot my G34 at 3 state matches a yr[idpa] to get use to the [stock] trigger i'll dry fire it 150 to 200 times 3 or 4 times a week just before a match,shoot it maybe 500 times before a match...you said you had smaller hands,ever just readjust your grip to get more "finger pad " on the trigger??try that to see what it does and go back to dry firing...a bunch

edited to say when dry firing on 3 targets,i'll prep the trigger on 2 targets,without all the way pulling it,then on the 3rd target prep it once then pull thru...try this about 50 times

Edited June 24, 2008 by GmanCdp

[Jake Di Vita]

Yeah, that's true for someone with solid fundamentals who's shooting fast or even reasonably fast splits, but this issue is a back to basics problem. I spend a LOT of time helping LEOs fix this and slowing them down, throwing some dummy rounds in there so they can SEE it, and then slowly building up the speed seems to be the most reliable way to fix it. The other is to tell them to shoot three shots and suddenly the second one isn't low and left (well, not all the time, but frequently). This is time for him to go back to basics, shoot slow, let the gun recoil and return by itself, and slowly build up the speed while learning to track the front sight.

I'm a big proponent of going back to basics, regardless of skill level. I just don't like to illustrate a problem using a drill that really doesn't illustrate the problem.

Now I don't believe shooting slow is a part of going back to basics. I like the drill of shooting 3 shots (or a bill drill for that matter) into the berm to illustrate a flinch. Using the dummy round drill the way you are works I'm sure, but the problem that stems from it is inevitably the person you helped with that drill will tell another person to try it, and even though they might not have the same problem they will get the same results out of the drill. Does that make sense?

To me it's akin to prescribing the same drug for 10 different illnesses. Sure it will work a few times, but it's equally as likely to do no good or harm. I guess we just have different teaching styles.

[XRe]

I'm with Jake on this one - the drill with dummies can work, but only in context and only when set up properly with the "drill-ee". One must discard all notion of trying to control recoil and just let the gun go wherever, instead only looking to see the front sight lift. Then, you have to work into the drill and just focus on trigger pull and watch the sight lift away. If you do that, you can really focus in on a pure, smooth, flinch-free trigger pull. My experience, though, from personal work, and from trying to work this with a student or two, is that its very very perishable to learn it this way - and as soon as you start adding speed back into it at all (which re-introduces recoil control and timing), it tends to be forgotten very quickly and the flinch returns.

The other downside is that people get this notion that any time the gun dips when it doesn't go off, the shooter flinched. That's simply not true at all, and is one of the biggest myths that persists in pistol shooting. Flinches are hallmarked by the eyes squeezing tightly shut right before a shot breaks, and characteristic random groups that tend to spread low and to the shooter's weak side. A tight group low and left is typically a sight-in issue or a grip issue - you can't shoot a tight group with a flinch. A tight group in the middle isn't a flinch either.

I have several ways I work on this with folks, depending on what they need, and such Some of what Jake mentioned is similar...

[Flexmoney]

I am with all of ya.

Did you all see that dork on the video clip that was trying to shoot that bottle rocket out of his...ass?

Right when he needed to be "loose"...he tightened up. That is a flinch...well, a clinch.

Often, the same a similar thing happens with shooters. When the gun is about to go off, they clinch up.

Most of this seems to come from the shooter trying. And, this trying comes in the form of a mistaken belief that gripping the gun harder (knowingly or not) with the strong hand is the way to "control" the gun.

If we want to get into technique, the weak-hand needs t be doing to work of holding the gun. The strong hand is relatively loose and along for the ride. It is there to work the trigger.

In using dummy rounds, for me the goal isn't to show the shooter that their gun dips. It is to show the shooter how much tension that are putting into the gun (with their string hand). Hard to do. But, just showing the dip probably helps them to realize that they are focused in the wrong area. (All caught up with speed and control.)

How do we get the shooter back to thinking about what they need to be thinking about? What is the fundamental?

Vision. (or, in this case...sensory input...including tension)

[G-ManBart]

If you can't do it right slow, you aren't going to be able to do it right fast. For some reason, that sounds dirty, but maybe it's just me

We often hear the very best shooters say "I don't care how high the front sight lifts, so long as it's predictable".

We often hear those same folks say that the right hand isn't putting much pressure on the gun.

We often hear those same folks say that they're actively pushing foward on the gun the instant after ignition to counter the recoil so they can shoot faster.

Does anybody else see all the contradictions there?

Watch a video or still pic of the top shooters as the gun is going off. Their strong hand forearms are almost always clearly showing significant tension that has to be from a fairly strong grip with the trigger hand. I don't know if anyone has done it, but I'd love to see someone put a couple of pressure sensors on the grip of a gun and get some data on hand pressure during a match or while shooting a stage at full speed.

If you're pushing forward on the gun after ignition to counter the recoil, you're going to be doing quite a bit of that with your strong hand, and it can't be done with a relaxed grip.

If the best shooters don't care how high the front sight goes, why do they counter the flip/recoil when they're shooting really fast, but not on a really long single shot (think a popper at 30yds or something like that)?

I think that the best shooters are putting a significant amount of pressure on the gun with their trigger hand, but balancing it with the trigger control required for the shot they're making at the time. Fast, hoser targets they don't need the ultimate in trigger control, so they can get away with muscling the gun harder to get the second shot where they want it faster. For 50yd standards, they're going to relax the trigger hand because they need all the trigger control they can get.

The only thing I'd add is that I don't think the dummy round drill should be used by itself.....it's just a step in the process (or can be). Let them see what they're doing when they think the gun is going to go off and then work with them to learn the difference between anticipating/flinching before the shot and controlling the gun after the shot breaks.

[Jake Di Vita]

If you can't do it right slow, you aren't going to be able to do it right fast. For some reason, that sounds dirty, but maybe it's just me

The limiting factor here is vision. Once the shooter sees the sights moving before the gun fires, it's easy to correct.

We often hear the very best shooters say "I don't care how high the front sight lifts, so long as it's predictable".

We often hear those same folks say that the right hand isn't putting much pressure on the gun.

We often hear those same folks say that they're actively pushing foward on the gun the instant after ignition to counter the recoil so they can shoot faster.

Does anybody else see all the contradictions there?

I squeeze pretty good with my right hand. I prefer the sight not to lift far, but it doesn't hurt me if it does. If you didn't actively push forward on the gun after ignition, you would never be driving the gun to the target. Bad juju. Besides, in a proper and active grip, the weak hand is controlling the majority of the recoil. I don't see many contradictions there at all.

If the best shooters don't care how high the front sight goes, why do they counter the flip/recoil when they're shooting really fast, but not on a really long single shot (think a popper at 30yds or something like that)?

Because the more tension there is, the less accuracy you'll have. The less accuracy that is needed, the harder I'm going to drive the gun. Those shooters know what they need to do to hit each target.

I think that the best shooters are putting a significant amount of pressure on the gun with their trigger hand, but balancing it with the trigger control required for the shot they're making at the time. Fast, hoser targets they don't need the ultimate in trigger control, so they can get away with muscling the gun harder to get the second shot where they want it faster. For 50yd standards, they're going to relax the trigger hand because they need all the trigger control they can get.

I agree.

[lugnut]

Well as suspected I have a lot to work on still and has many of you have posted... there are many ideas/opinions. But fundamentals are fundamentals and I'll continue to work on these. "See the sights always"- I need to do this better.

One thing I must mention- I switched to the Glock 34 from a 1911 recently AND the practice session before this original post was horrific. I was exhausted, hot and tired... I should have just stopped. A more recent practice was better and as always... I have more to keep working on.

Lesson learned.

1) When practice goes to crap... just stop. It's not helping at all and it's probably hurting.

2) Getting to the next level takes lots of work and mental preparation.

3) It's awesome when so many great shooters take their time to help others. Thanks.

Edited June 24, 2008 by lugnut

[Paladin]

this is the classic 7 o'clock push.. it is caused by increased tension in the right hand relative to the left hand and/or you have too much trigger finger placement on the trigger..

[bierman]

1) When practice goes to crap... just stop. It's not helping at all and it's probably hurting.

2) Getting to the next level takes lots of work and mental preparation.

3) It's awesome when so many great shooters take their time to help others. Thanks.

+1 to #1 and #2. #3 is one of the reasons this is the best spot on the web.

[Boo Davis]

I use to have issues with trigger jerk. The cure? My training cohort would hit me in the back of the head with a ballpeen hammer as soon as I fired the shot. On the surface this may appear excessive, but in reality it took the fear away from the gun recoiling. Know I no longer flinched from recoil, only from the hammer to the back of the head. Take away the hammer, take away the flinch. Give it a shot.

Your condifant,

Boo

[SA Friday]

When I read this I thought it could be a couple of things, and all were already mentioned; bad follow-through, milking the grip, incorrect grip, tension, and possibly blinking. If you have a video camera, it would be great if you could video yourself from a tri-pod positioned in front and to the side of you while you do a draw and transition as fast as you can through an array of 4 targets about 2 feet apart. That would show a LOT.

[R.Elliott]

People often start whacking the trigger in an effort to "cherry-pick" their shots at speed when they see the sight picture they like. Strong fundamentals will get it done at all speeds. See the spot or zone you want to hit, hold the sights in that zone while accepting that the gun will always wobble, apply steady pressure to the trigger until you see the sights lift in recoil and you will know where the shot went. Same process for all speeds.

[shoot]

I have developed a 7 oclock push that didn't seem to be present until I started doing a lot of airsoft as part of my dry fire experience and home work.

Airsoft has helped me greatly especially on the steel but I'm having a hard time as I'm pushing recoil over.

I see it happen and it's hard to stop it. Does not happen all the time. I'm calling the shot and know it happend as I'm transitioning.

How do I practice out of this?

Also part of this problem started when I stopped bending forward and started forcing stillness. Sure makes transition faster as recoil seems to be almost a help. Everyone knows you can't go dipping and bobbing especially in steel.

Does that make sense ? Any ideas on practice methods to correct ?

Is airsoft time hurting me or is it just something to work hard through with time as I'm working to get to the next level.

[Flexmoney]

Grip the gun (mostly) with the off-hand...not the strong hand.