New range commands!

[Noah Gladstone]

Many years ago at a major match (an A6 to be exact), an RO told me to load and make ready in a normal tone of voice. I did, and got in the start position. He then said, "Are you ready? Stand by." Much louder. You should have seen the look on his face when we hear "Hold it!!! Range is not clear! Stop!!!! There was an RO still down range behind a barricade. The RO with timer freaked. He did not know what to do. I held my hands in the air until the other RO came running back behind the start position. The RO with the timer then asked me to unload. When I was clear, he went and sat down for a minute. For that reason, I ALWAYS state that the "Range is going hot." I always look and check for myself, but I will take no chances.

This happenned to me to. RO said load and make ready which I did them another RO ran out from behind the wall ( he was resetting a mover). I got me very upset but didnt seem to bother the RO. It took me a couple of minutes until I assumed the start position. Now I look behind walls myself when I am shooting.

[wide45]

If you light one off it's not a DQ'able offense.

10.4.3.1 Exception – a detonation, which occurs while unloading a handgun,

is not considered a shot or discharge subject to a match disqualification,

however, Rule 5.1.6 may apply.

You appear to misunderstand that rule. It does NOT alibi you if you "light one off" during U&SC. A detonation is completely different.

Detonation is defined in Appendix A3 (page 55). It concerns a round which goes off due to the primer being struck by the ejector (can you say .40 1911?) or if a primer is struck by an object on the ground when the round is dropped. The key words being "other than by action of the firing pin" and "the bullet does not pass through the barrel".

George, I think you misunderstood the post. He was talking about a detonation. It was a reply to this post.

I eject and catch in practice, but try and remember not to do it when an RO is there. If I light one off then it's my own fault, but the RO has to be there and out of respect for them refrain unless I space.

I think it's unwise to risk a detonation. Doing it in the RO's face is really bad.

[rishii]

Many years ago at a major match (an A6 to be exact), an RO told me to load and make ready in a normal tone of voice. I did, and got in the start position. He then said, "Are you ready? Stand by." Much louder. You should have seen the look on his face when we hear "Hold it!!! Range is not clear! Stop!!!! There was an RO still down range behind a barricade. The RO with timer freaked. He did not know what to do. I held my hands in the air until the other RO came running back behind the start position. The RO with the timer then asked me to unload. When I was clear, he went and sat down for a minute. For that reason, I ALWAYS state that the "Range is going hot." I always look and check for myself, but I will take no chances.

This happenned to me to. RO said load and make ready which I did them another RO ran out from behind the wall ( he was resetting a mover). I got me very upset but didnt seem to bother the RO. It took me a couple of minutes until I assumed the start position. Now I look behind walls myself when I am shooting.

if I'm the RO with the timer, and there's walls I can't see thru, I'm usually the last guy back from down range. also before I start the next shooter, I'll "yell is everyone back", there has been a couple of times I've had guys yell back NO

[George Jones]

George, I think you misunderstood the post. He was talking about a detonation. It was a reply to this post.

I eject and catch in practice, but try and remember not to do it when an RO is there. If I light one off then it's my own fault, but the RO has to be there and out of respect for them refrain unless I space.

I think it's unwise to risk a detonation. Doing it in the RO's face is really bad.

You're right. I guess I got lost in the multiple quotes. Thanks.

[Jim Norman]

Slide Forward George.

Edited June 22, 2008 by Jim Norman

[shred]

The 'nod if you're ready' goes back to well before IDPA (we heard it before IDPA was founded)-- the funny/annoying thing is new shooters/ROs pick it up and then need re-education.

[J-Ho]

Disassemble and show clear. (See Johnson 3 gun thread)

[salilus]

Maybe this just comes from me never shooting a USPSA\IPSC match, I stick with IDPA at the moment. When at badlands this year, I am guessing many of the SO's were RO's for IPSC\USPSA also as I was hearing new things on many stages. At one point I showed clear multiple times as I did not understand what this guy was telling me. I finished the CoF and heard, "If finished unload and show clear", so I did. This was followed by "IF clear hammer down and holster". From habit I put the slide forward then opened it back up and held it there after I processed what was said. Again he says "IF clear hammer down and holster". Slide forward, open it up again. He says it again "IF clear hammer down and holster", I finally ask, Can you see that it is clear? He says yes so I slide forward (not really), hammer, holster. I cant understand why that has to be a question. Should the RO not check to see if its clear? I am used to "I SEE CLEAR". slide forward hammer down and holster. Can someone explain the logic behind this?

[SA Friday]

Maybe this just comes from me never shooting a USPSA\IPSC match, I stick with IDPA at the moment. When at badlands this year, I am guessing many of the SO's were RO's for IPSC\USPSA also as I was hearing new things on many stages. At one point I showed clear multiple times as I did not understand what this guy was telling me. I finished the CoF and heard, "If finished unload and show clear", so I did. This was followed by "IF clear hammer down and holster". From habit I put the slide forward then opened it back up and held it there after I processed what was said. Again he says "IF clear hammer down and holster". Slide forward, open it up again. He says it again "IF clear hammer down and holster", I finally ask, Can you see that it is clear? He says yes so I slide forward (not really), hammer, holster. I cant understand why that has to be a question. Should the RO not check to see if its clear? I am used to "I SEE CLEAR". slide forward hammer down and holster. Can someone explain the logic behind this?

In USPSA the responsibility to ensure the weapon is clear is on the shooter, not the RO. So, if the gun goes boom at 'hammer down', it's the shooters DQ and not a question if the RO failed to see a round in the gun. I will say though, as an RO, if I see the gun is not clear I will say 'stop' and then repeat 'if finished unload and show clear'.

[NMBOpen]

Maybe this just comes from me never shooting a USPSA\IPSC match, I stick with IDPA at the moment. When at badlands this year, I am guessing many of the SO's were RO's for IPSC\USPSA also as I was hearing new things on many stages. At one point I showed clear multiple times as I did not understand what this guy was telling me. I finished the CoF and heard, "If finished unload and show clear", so I did. This was followed by "IF clear hammer down and holster". From habit I put the slide forward then opened it back up and held it there after I processed what was said. Again he says "IF clear hammer down and holster". Slide forward, open it up again. He says it again "IF clear hammer down and holster", I finally ask, Can you see that it is clear? He says yes so I slide forward (not really), hammer, holster. I cant understand why that has to be a question. Should the RO not check to see if its clear? I am used to "I SEE CLEAR". slide forward hammer down and holster. Can someone explain the logic behind this?

The "IF CLEAR" puts the responsibility on the shooter rather than the SO/RO to assure the gun is clear before dropping the hammer and holstering.

[Alan Meek]

Maybe this just comes from me never shooting a USPSA\IPSC match, I stick with IDPA at the moment. When at badlands this year, I am guessing many of the SO's were RO's for IPSC\USPSA also as I was hearing new things on many stages. At one point I showed clear multiple times as I did not understand what this guy was telling me. I finished the CoF and heard, "If finished unload and show clear", so I did. This was followed by "IF clear hammer down and holster". From habit I put the slide forward then opened it back up and held it there after I processed what was said. Again he says "IF clear hammer down and holster". Slide forward, open it up again. He says it again "IF clear hammer down and holster", I finally ask, Can you see that it is clear? He says yes so I slide forward (not really), hammer, holster. I cant understand why that has to be a question. Should the RO not check to see if its clear? I am used to "I SEE CLEAR". slide forward hammer down and holster. Can someone explain the logic behind this?

My understanding is previously USPSA used the commands "Gun Clear" "Hammer Down" "Holster" and this brought forth the problem that if the RO declared the gun clear and it in fact was not and on the Hammer Down command the gun discharges, the shooter was following the directions of the RO and it was not a DQable action. The command "If Clear" put the onus on the competitor to make sure the gun is clear before the Hammer Down command.

Alan

edited for spelling

Edited June 24, 2008 by Alan Meek

[DonT]

Maybe this just comes from me never shooting a USPSA\IPSC match, I stick with IDPA at the moment. When at badlands this year, I am guessing many of the SO's were RO's for IPSC\USPSA also as I was hearing new things on many stages. At one point I showed clear multiple times as I did not understand what this guy was telling me. I finished the CoF and heard, "If finished unload and show clear", so I did. This was followed by "IF clear hammer down and holster". From habit I put the slide forward then opened it back up and held it there after I processed what was said. Again he says "IF clear hammer down and holster". Slide forward, open it up again. He says it again "IF clear hammer down and holster", I finally ask, Can you see that it is clear? He says yes so I slide forward (not really), hammer, holster. I cant understand why that has to be a question. Should the RO not check to see if its clear? I am used to "I SEE CLEAR". slide forward hammer down and holster. Can someone explain the logic behind this?

My guess would be, to leave the final responsibility for the gun being clear, with the shooter.

[George Jones]

My understanding is previously USPSA used the commands "Gun Clear" "Hammer Down" "Holster" and this brought forth the problem that if the RO declared the gun clear and it in fact was not and on the Hammer Down command the gun discharges, the shooter was following the directions of the RO and it was not a DQable action. The command "If Clear" put the onus on the competitor to make sure the gun is clear before the Hammer Down command.

Alan

To add a little detail.......

As best as I remember it, the opinion which Alan describes above was the opinion of IPSC - not USPSA. USPSA always held that the gun was the complete responsibility of the shooter and that if the RO missed the fact that a round was still in the chamber and there was a resultant AD, the shooter was the one at fault and was the one who would suffer the penalty. IPSC's position at the time was that the (old) "Gun Clear" command was a declaration of fact on the part of the RO and that this declaration absolved the shooter of responsibility.

Back in 2002/3, at the time that IPSC and USPSA were attempting to more closely align their respective rulebooks, a number of concessions/compromises were agreed to. One of them was that IPSC accepted USPSA's position relative to this issue. In order to avoid any reasoning of RO responsibility (which a declaration of "Gun Clear" suggested), IPSC and USPSA agreed to change the command to "IF clear".

HTH

[Anubis]

Disassemble and show clear. (See Johnson 3 gun thread)

You beat me to it!