9.1.4

[EZ Bagger]

Must be a left brain vs right brain thing, cause as much as I try to figure out how it's applicable I can't!

B=C

So what?

9.1.4 Unrestored Targets – If, following completion of a course of fire by a

previous competitor, one or more targets have not been properly

patched or taped or if previously applied pasters have fallen off the target

for the competitor being scored, the Range Officer must judge

whether or not an accurate score can be determined. If there are extra

scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon, and it is not obvious

which hits were made by the competitor being scored, the affected

competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire. For the purpose

of this rule, B-zone and C-zone hits shall be considered one and

the same.

[George Jones]

Let's assume a target wasn't pasted. The RO sees 2 Bs and 2 Cs. All hits are visibly identical - same caliber, same grease ring, etc. Without that last sentence in the rule, a reshoot would be required becuase the RO cannot identify which hits belong to that shooter. The last sentence recognizes that all those hits are worth the same and allows two of those hits to be counted, avoiding a reshoot.

[EZ Bagger]

Thanks for the reply. Let me see if I can make sure I understand the rule.

The only time there is a reshoot is if the points/penalties could be different, depending on how the hits were scored.

Sound right?

Thanks.

[Nik Habicht]

EZ,

Yep, you've got it. And once upon a time, actually before my time I think, there was a provision for settling ties in scoring by counting Alphas, then if there was still a tie, Bravos, which trumped Charlies.....

[EZ Bagger]

Thanks guys.

[AikiDale]

If there are extra scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon, and it is not obvious

which hits were made by the competitor being scored, the affected

competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire.

B=C is still superfluous. If there are two .40 caliber B hits and two C hits and it is not obvious which were made by the competitor, then the competitor must reshoot.

[Flexmoney]

huh?

A Bravo is scored the same as a Charlie. (Really, we have zero use for have two different scoring zones.)

So, as the rule shows...no reshoot if you are just debating over Bravo vs. Charlie.

Major power factor:

Bravo = Charlie = 4 points

Minor power factor:

Bravo = Charlie = 3 points

[EZ Bagger]

If there are extra scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon, and it is not obvious

which hits were made by the competitor being scored, the affected

competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire.

B=C is still superfluous. If there are two .40 caliber B hits and two C hits and it is not obvious which were made by the competitor, then the competitor must reshoot.

I think what's being said by the others is that the last line of the rule means that there is not a reshoot in your example.

[CDRODA396]

I'm still confused as to the value of the last sentence....

If...

If there are extra scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon, and it is not obvious

which hits were made by the competitor being scored, the affected competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire.

...then, to me it means that if you cant CLEARLY determine who shot what, then this statement...

For the purpose of this rule, B-zone and C-zone hits shall be considered one and the same.

...it totally irrelevant. Cant tell, reshoot. If you can tell the difference, then why wouldnt you score the hits as they appear, again making the statement totally irrelevant?

So, two 9mm holes, and two .45 holes, and your shooter is slingin' big lead, score the two .45 holes as is and paste. If all four holes are .40, then paste and reshoot...the last sentence is out there flappin' best I can tell?

I have been known to be confused well beyond that of the average person, so I wont be offended if the answer is obvious, just lay it on me!

[Joe4d]

I'm still confused as to the value of the last sentence....

If...

If there are extra scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon, and it is not obvious

which hits were made by the competitor being scored, the affected competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire.

...then, to me it means that if you cant CLEARLY determine who shot what, then this statement...

For the purpose of this rule, B-zone and C-zone hits shall be considered one and the same.

...it totally irrelevant. Cant tell, reshoot. If you can tell the difference, then why wouldnt you score the hits as they appear, again making the statement totally irrelevant?

So, two 9mm holes, and two .45 holes, and your shooter is slingin' big lead, score the two .45 holes as is and paste. If all four holes are .40, then paste and reshoot...the last sentence is out there flappin' best I can tell?

I have been known to be confused well beyond that of the average person, so I wont be offended if the answer is obvious, just lay it on me!

The answer is way obvious, your just reading way too much into a simple rule, If an RO can acurately score the target he does if not reshoot. Simple as that. By your statement if there were 50 holes in the c zone and none anywhere else you would order a reshoot because you arnt sure which 2 are the shooters ? Who cares. It doesnt make any difference in the score and neither does having a hole in the the B or C's. The RO can give an acurate number of points on the score sheet without knowing which holes , B or C the shooter made.

[EZ Bagger]

I have been known to be confused well beyond that of the average person, so I wont be offended if the answer is obvious, just lay it on me!

I'm with ya! I read that, then reread it, then read it again. Sat it aside for a while and read it again...and again. Then finally came here.

[racerba]

I have been known to be confused well beyond that of the average person, so I wont be offended if the answer is obvious, just lay it on me!

OK:

- If the RO can tell the difference then score it, tape it, and be done with it.

- If the RO cannot tell the difference, then

a.) if the difference is whether it's a B hit or a C hit, then score one of them, tape it and be done with it.

or

b.) if it's something else, then tape it up and reshoot

Edited June 17, 2008 by racerba

[SA Friday]

I have been known to be confused well beyond that of the average person, so I wont be offended if the answer is obvious, just lay it on me!

I'm with ya! I read that, then reread it, then read it again. Sat it aside for a while and read it again...and again. Then finally came here.

You could have just called the big giant head...

[EZ Bagger]

I have been known to be confused well beyond that of the average person, so I wont be offended if the answer is obvious, just lay it on me!

I'm with ya! I read that, then reread it, then read it again. Sat it aside for a while and read it again...and again. Then finally came here.

You could have just called the big giant head...

You really think he's read the rule book?

[Flexmoney]

I am scoring a target. It has 4 holes in it...all are 40 caliber. The holes are 1-Bravo and 3-Charlie.

I can't tell...from looking at the target...who shot the Bravo. But, it doesn't matter. Since the Bravo scores the same as the Charlie. (It's the exact same points, we just happen to have a different name for the hit in the head.)

No reshoot.

[ima45dv8]

9.1.4 Unrestored Targets – If, following completion of a course of fire by a

previous competitor, one or more targets have not been properly

patched or taped or if previously applied pasters have fallen off the target

for the competitor being scored, the Range Officer must judge

whether or not an accurate score can be determined. If there are extra

scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon, and it is not obvious

which hits were made by the competitor being scored, the affected

competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire.

The RO is responsible for recording a score that accurately refects the shooter's attempt at the course of fire. I think the key word here is, "score". Flex's example captures it pretty well. If the hits are all of the same point value and the same caliber, score it, tape it and get the next shooter to the line.

[wide45]

I am scoring a target. It has 4 holes in it...all are 40 caliber. The holes are 1-Bravo and 3-Charlie.

I can't tell...from looking at the target...who shot the Bravo. But, it doesn't matter. Since the Bravo scores the same as the Charlie. (It's the exact same points, we just happen to have a different name for the hit in the head.)

No reshoot.

No reshoot if you are sure that the previous competitor put exactly two holes in the target.

[Hoofy]

But I can have a reshoot if I can intimidate the RM into giving me one.

[Boris Zaretsky]

I am scoring a target. It has 4 holes in it...all are 40 caliber. The holes are 1-Bravo and 3-Charlie.

I can't tell...from looking at the target...who shot the Bravo. But, it doesn't matter. Since the Bravo scores the same as the Charlie. (It's the exact same points, we just happen to have a different name for the hit in the head.)

No reshoot.

Just for the sake of argument.

Four holes on a target. All of the same caliber. Two A, two C. One A touching a scoring border of a penalty target. The shooter before had no penalties. You know it for sure and can check his score sheet (for penalty, you cannot id which target is scored and where). You may be absolutely sure that that penalty belongs to the last shooter. (You see, it's coming?...). would you give that penalty to the last shooter or oder re-shoot, may be just because you don't want arguments. What's your take on that?

[ima45dv8]

I would tend to order a reshoot. I get what you're saying about the previous shooter's scoresheet not showing the penalty, but if that target got missed during reset and wasn't taped, it could have easily been recorded incorrectly as well. I wouldn't want a scoring error for shooter #1 to be compounded by dumping it on shooter #2.

Having said that, I once did something very similar to what you're describing. I didn't feel right about it afterwards.

[Boris Zaretsky]

I would tend to order a reshoot. I get what you're saying about the previous shooter's scoresheet not showing the penalty, but if that target got missed during reset and wasn't taped, it could have easily been recorded incorrectly as well. I wouldn't want a scoring error for shooter #1 to be compounded by dumping it on shooter #2.

Having said that, I once did something very similar to what you're describing. I didn't feel right about it afterwards.

Yap! I'd go for re-shoot. Besides, it would avoid a Turkish bazaar in a making.

[SDM]

"For the purpose of this rule, B-zone and C-zone hits shall be considered one and the same. "

I understand this is in the rulebook as a reminder that b=c, but as real, live, thinking, gun wielding humans shouldn't we be able to figure this out on our own?

Edited June 18, 2008 by SDM

[Nik Habicht]

"For the purpose of this rule, B-zone and C-zone hits shall be considered one and the same. "

I understand this is in the rulebook as a reminder that b=c, but as real, live, thinking, gun wielding humans shouldn't we be able to figure this out on our own?

Ordinarily yes --- but there was a time in the past where Bravos and Charlies were not necessarily equal, even though they were both worth the same points......

confused? Look for an earlier post of mine in this thread.....

[Flexmoney]

I kinda like that rule book...crystal clear.

[SA Friday]

But I can have a reshoot if I can intimidate the RM into giving me one.

Um ya, because you are SOOOOO intimidating......