DougCarden Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 John, we must work for people that are either cloned or related. I have the same observations here in Iowa with my People. They couldnt understand why I took my own vacation time and paid out of my pocket to go to Jim Cirillo's class recently. Some of the admin thought I was crazy. These are the same I will have to walk through an involved officer shooting program if and when the time comes. Be safe, Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 1. 99% of the cops out there got into the job becasue they wanted to do the work not to carry a gun. John, I understand this, because it's very similar here in Italy. I have served my coscription year in Carabinieri, and I've personally checked this to be true. OTOH, I really don't accept it, and will fight this mentality anytime. A cop has a duty, and is assigned tools to accomplish this duty. If said cop is not willing to master the tools he's issued to perform his task, he's not going to be a good cop. Period. I'm an aeronautical engineer. What would other guys think of me not willing to learn and master the basics of structural analysis? Will they be happy to fly on planes designed/maintained by me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 2. I firmly beleive that in the vast majority of self defense shootings C class is all the pure shooting skills one needs to prevail. Of course being better than that increases one's chances but the law of diminishing returns rules here. Very rare is a shoot out determined by exteme shooting skill. I tend to agree with that, actually. I think there's a natural human tendency, especially regarding something eliciting such visceral reaction as the concept of survival against a violent attack, if we know we're not very good at something (i.e. shooting skill), to want to believe it's unimportant. At the same time, if we know we are very good at something, we want to believe it's very important. While being a great shooter is probably, most of the time, less important to personal survival than great shooters like to believe it is, "probably less important, most of the time" doesn't translate into "always unimportant." And the bottom line is, when the balloon goes up, I want every possible advantage on my side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 I'm an aeronautical engineer. What would other guys think of me not willing to learn and master the basics of structural analysis? Will they be happy to fly on planes designed/maintained by me? At least they will all come down - just like the rest, only faster... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 To be absolutely honest I have not read all posts of this thread fully but I did read most of them with interest. I'm shooting IPSC and Tactical (more of IPSC). I have been shooting in the army and now days as IPSC competitor and instructor. Here (Israel) we have many gun owners, most of them where born on the myth of the "army special ops undercover spy super multidisciplinary ninja" BUT the sad truth is that LE forces + army + other hush hush agencies are not that good with side arms and most cases they are way behind IPSC decent shooters in technique and ability as far as concerning shooting. Just bear in mind that real life tactical situations are more than just shooting ability but it is a very important skill no matter what anyone thinks, as I see it - it depends on the complexity of the threat and the ability on the armed person - including the ability to react fast and accurate in a life danger situation. IPSC shooters are trained to act & react automatically with high level of safety (that is sometimes very important specially when there are civ's around) with accuracy and speed, DVC - remember?! while tactical shooters tend to be out of compatibility when defensive shooting (as opposed to offensive) is required. Most regretfully we do not have IDPA here in Israel, so I can't compare, but I would love to have some of my IPSC friends 1st in line to help when in need, way way before all the tacticals (most of them to be fair). I have been in situations I had to draw, I have also been to those that I kept my head low and slow - Let me tell you something: it’s never a clean cut decision, always grayscale to make your call from. Wish you all to have this debate in theory only. ps. Great forum, great issues & opinions & great people!! Oh yeah.. sorry for my crapy english, my main lang is hebrew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 Oh yeah.. sorry for my crapy english, my main lang is hebrew. No apologies necessary, Barry. I understood your post quite well. You offered some good points for consideration. Stay safe. ...Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thompson Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 To add to Duane said; in the Avery class I took he talked about how people become very complacent in things that are not immediate threats. The human mind does this as a way to prioritze our energy expenditures to survive in the wild. Since things like getting into gun fights and car crashes are seen as remote or things that happen to someone else we minimalize the risk and rationalize them and therefore don't practice shooting, don't carry a gun off duty(cops), or wear seatbelts. A more common example is people who smoke. Everyone who starts knows it's going to kill them someday but since that some day is typically years and years down the road, escpecially from an adolecent's invinciblity point of view, our mind totally minimalizes what in cognitive reality is an assinine habit to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 "The Anti-competitor Mentality, Please!!" This title reminds me of some of USPSA/IPSC's new rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulm540 Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 So, does IPSC-type shooting have any real-world application or relevance? I think so. If I were on a Dynamic Entry team I would petition to carry a full-blown Open division comp-gun. The louder, the better. After the first two rounds were fired half of the miscreants would be totally out of the fight. Picture them rolling on the ground, screaming, hands over their ears, with blood running out between their fingers. Those not in total auditory exclusion would be so stunned they’d be sitting ducks. bwa ha ha ha ha !!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Oh yeah.. sorry for my crapy english, my main lang is hebrew. Hey, your English is a hell of a lot better than my Hebrew! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Hey, your English is a hell of a lot better than my Hebrew! LOL, fair enough. you even made my ("I hate this shooting business") wife smile, she just might think we are all human after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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