Over-practicing the IDPA Classifier?

[Filishooter]

While being good practice for fundamental skills, I feel that now that I know it so well from practice, its missing the adrenal kick that I get from the anticipation/excitement of the unknown stage, the “high” that I get that I use to get into a zone during a match is gone. I almost think I was doing better not practicing the classifier and approaching it on game-day as just another match. The classifier reminds me of an old girlfriend where we are stuck in the same dull routine where we start to loose interest. I know what I need to do to make her happy, but I have to work through it. In contrast, a new match is like the other girl(s) your seeing behind your girlfriends back...fun, exciting, new and you know there will always be another, different one next week!

I seem to do well in match pressure situations, I tend to rise to the occasion and most of the time do well. Is it possible to practice the classifier too much? Just for reference I'm an SSP EXP shooter about 3-5 seconds outside of Master.

[uscbigdawg]

I have found that there is a lot to be said for just looking at a stage and then waiting to shoot it. For instance when stages are released at a match or classifiers, just see if there's anything weird (strong/weak hand, odd start position, et. al.) or difficult (>35m shots). Other than that, figure it out when your squad does there look at the stage.

Rich

[tightloop]

The classifier provides the opportunity to test the basic skills required to do well in an IDPA match...lets you know what you can do well and what not so well..

IMHO, unless you are seeing you name at the TOP of the page under Master rating, you might need to fine tune some of those skills, regardless of how dull they might seem. However, this opinion is worth what you paid for it...

[Loves2Shoot]

IMHO, unless you are seeing you name at the TOP of the page under Master rating, you might need to fine tune some of those skills, regardless of how dull they might seem.

Even then you still need to fine tune them no matter how dull they might seem.

[RobMoore]

I almost think I was doing better not practicing the classifier and approaching it on game-day as just another match.

Thats how I looked at it. The classifier determines who I shoot against at matches, and I don't get to practice for specific match stages, so why practice the classifier? I practice drills similar to the classifier, and what I see at matches, but I know of people who practice the classifier over and over trying to get that next level, get promoted, and end up running in the back of the pack because they aren't truly up to snuff at that next level.

I think for it to be a true representation, you should ignore it until "match" day. Do your drills, but not the exact course. When "match" day comes, shoot your match pace and whatever you get classified at, you are that.

[MichiganShootist]

The topic (over practicing the classifier).... brings up another possible fall out.

One of the clubs I often visit runs the classifier one night a month all year round. Many of the members run the entire classifer twice in one evening every month. One of the by products is that many of the people at that club have become what I'll call classifier specialists.... and as such have themselves in many cases way over classified.

While it's a decent test of skill IMO the classifier is for the most part MUCH easier than the stages in the majority of matches around the state.. hence only one or two members of this club ever see their name at the top of matches..... but man can they blaze the classifier.

[GmanCdp]

i dropped 88 points on the 3rd stage of the classifier this weekend :popcorn1: ...still ended up SS in SSR.. had not shot SSR in 4 months,so i'll try again...

[tightloop]

The topic (over practicing the classifier).... brings up another possible fall out.

One of the clubs I often visit runs the classifier one night a month all year round. Many of the members run the entire classifer twice in one evening every month. One of the by products is that many of the people at that club have become what I'll call classifier specialists.... and as such have themselves in many cases way over classified.

While it's a decent test of skill IMO the classifier is for the most part MUCH easier than the stages in the majority of matches around the state.. hence only one or two members of this club ever see their name at the top of matches..... but man can they blaze the classifier.

Just wondering what stages are so much harder than those on the classifier...If you can do everything needed in the classifier and can shoot it say CDP in 80 or so sec, you should be seeing you name at the top of the page...all the matches I shot over the years did not seem to have anything in it that was not covered pretty well in the classifier..lets see, couple types of reloads, SHO, WHO, barricade, distance, forward and backward...maybe need some heads at 20+ yds but then it becomes Monkey Toss not much past that. If you can do those basic things really well, you should come close to winning it unless TGO or Taran show up unexpectedly...

[Glshooter]

While the classifier has the basic skills involved in IDPA, I find that it is not a true test of all that is involved in a typical IDPA match. Things in a typical match that I notice costing people time are moving into and out of a shooting position, draws and reloads WITH concealment, using flashlights, shooting while moving laterally and many other things not included in the classifier. These are all things in any major IDPA match. The classifier is a good test to gauge general ability and give a classification, but in my opinion its not worth practicing all the time in preparation to win IDPA matches. If you want to move up in class then go ahead and practice it. I only shoot 1, maybe 2 classifiers a year but I'm a much better match shooter than classifier shooter.

[tightloop]

While the classifier has the basic skills involved in IDPA, I find that it is not a true test of all that is involved in a typical IDPA match. Things in a typical match that I notice costing people time are moving into and out of a shooting position, draws and reloads WITH concealment, using flashlights, shooting while moving laterally and many other things not included in the classifier. These are all things in any major IDPA match. The classifier is a good test to gauge general ability and give a classification, but in my opinion its not worth practicing all the time in preparation to win IDPA matches. If you want to move up in class then go ahead and practice it. I only shoot 1, maybe 2 classifiers a year but I'm a much better match shooter than classifier shooter.

OK...drawing from concealment is a must have skill but it gets practiced maybe 8 of 10 stages locally, but I question how many times you will need a light....takes a lot of work to set up a proper dark house...maybe the Natls or the S&W shoot, but I only saw one other in the almost 6 yrs I shot it. Perhaps turn the lights off if you shoot indoors... Grant you going left to right and right to left is useful, but what are the "many" other skills you need...help me out here...I just don't see there being that many things, sorry..

[zhunter]

Let's see a diagram of this classifier

[Loves2Shoot]

IDPA Rulebook (page 69)

[MichiganShootist]

TightLoop questioned what is in a regular match that isn't in the classifier (in a manner of speaking).

Well.. I shot in a very good 10 stage IDPA "club" match last weekend... and here are just a few of the challenges at that match that are not in any way represented in the classifer.

1 A blind shoot house with no walk through (two steels, a swinger, and 2 drop turners.. activated by doors or pads on the ground)

2 Drawing and going prone after the beep and shooting over a 2' high wall at 5 targets in priority sequence out to 18 yards with 2 non-threats in the way.

3 Shooting while laterally on the move to cover at targets which were moving laterally the opposite direction (on a rail)

4 Probably 8 swingers, 6 drop turners, and 4 clam shells

5 Shooting on the move toward a series of targets starting about 50 feet from the targets... engage two shots each free style.. reload and re-engage 2 shots each strong hand.. reload and re-engage 2 shots weak hand (all on the move)

This is not a total list.. just a few that came to mind.

I have shot at a lot of state and regional matches all over and because my home state has so many IDPA and USPSA shooters (and clubs)... I believe that the matches are considerably more sophisticated than the classifier.... and many state IDPA matches. I have been to state matches that looked like a toned down version of the classifer... That's NOT how it is in my part of the world. We have a major Regional match next weekend and more than 50% of the 100+ shooters registered are either Experts or Masters.

I AM NOT IDPA BASHING---------- Just responding to "loop's" post.

BTW-- we have clubs that do pitch dark flashlight matches as a regular part of their year.

Edited May 12, 2008 by MichiganShootist

[Glshooter]

The clubs I shoot at as well as most of the major matches here in the Northeast including the Nationals last year have regular flashlight stages.

Edited May 12, 2008 by Glshooter

[HuskySig]

The IDPA classifier is all about consistency from club to club all around the world. The addition of swingers, drop turners and clamshells would add all sort of variability into the mix. In my club's storage shed, we have three or four swingers. Each one has it's own unique swing speed, from slow to fast.

As to the original intent of this thread. I have posted several time that being a master of the IDPA classifier is not necessarily the same as being an IDPA Master.

mattk

[Genghis]

The classifier does test most of the BASIC skills used in an IDPA match. But I do MUCH better in normal IDPA matches than in the classifier. Tentative hypothesis - the classifier rewards accuracy (headshots and 20y shots), and I have not yet found the proper mix of accuracy and speed for IDPA.

I missed moving up from SS to EX by a little less than ten and a half seconds. I shot the match in a bit less than 84 seconds but dropped 93 points (2 missed head shots and 2 misses at 20 yards). I know I could slow down by a small fraction of a second on each shot and regain most of those points.

[Filishooter]

Thanks everyone for the great info. While it would be nice to hold a Master card, if I need to try so hard to get it, then I'm probably NOT ready to be a Master shooter even IF I make the time! I know of people who shoot it multiple times until they get whatever class they want. I think regardless of class, a shooter should be able to shoot the classifier COLD in one run and make a time consistently and repeatedly. Sometimes people get into chasing a classification that it becomes more important than the shooting.

[gunsablazin]

Thanks everyone for the great info. While it would be nice to hold a Master card, if I need to try so hard to get it, then I'm probably NOT ready to be a Master shooter even IF I make the time! I know of people who shoot it multiple times until they get whatever class they want. I think regardless of class, a shooter should be able to shoot the classifier COLD in one run and make a time consistently and repeatedly. Sometimes people get into chasing a classification that it becomes more important than the shooting.

Amen Brother! I started working on making master in CDP and the next thing you know my practices became just that, work. The closest I got was 100.12 about 8 sec. too slow. Now I have gotten away from trying to be this or that and just went back to shooting my best and letting the class come to me instead of working so hard I'm back to playing, which is much more satisfying to me. I know I have it in me to make MA, and when the the time is right I will, there is no hurry.

[jhe888]

I think it would be more than possible to become a classifier specialist, and to become a paper Master (or even a paper Expert) who wouldn't have much chance to win a "real" match.

I just shot the Classifier, and was in the middle of the pack of my class - ESP Sharpshooter. (I didn't shoot particularly well, but there were no disasters, either.) But at all the sanctioned matches I have shot in the last year or so, I have been closer to the top than my classifier times would indicate I should be. I could easily imagine winning my division/class at a smaller/regional sanctioned match and getting bumped up.

I also think I could focus on the classifier for a month or two and move up that way.

I think this shows the system is actually working reasonably well. My classifier scores aren't currently going to get me bumped, but a match at which I perform a little over my head might.

[boo radley]

IMO, the classifier is a decent test of shooting chops, but there are at least two long threads on the first page of this discussing issues with IDPA rankings....

A couple things I'd wish they'd change about the classifier:

1) Should require a cover garment. Wearing that damn vest makes a big, big difference in draws and reloads.

2) The 3rd stage or string, is weighted too heavily. It's good to have some shots at distance, and maybe even longer, but so many?

3) Tactical sequence never tested. At the barricade distance in the 3rd stage, there's no slicing of any pie, and very little shift is needed at the barrel. And what about near-to-far? The 1-1-2-1-1 stuff??

I think you could drop one of the two SHO strings, and one of the two El Pres's and replace with a barricade a shorter distance, and some hard transitions around cover. <shrug>

[HuskySig]

At the barricade distance in the 3rd stage, there's no slicing of any pie, and very little shift is needed at the barrel.

Say what?! I've never seen the classifier administered where a shooter could shoot directly over the top of the barrel. I thought the whole purpose of low cover was that you had to kneel and pie around it to see and engage targets?

mattk

[RobMoore]

Shooting over the barrel is one of a few ways I've seen the classifier shot incorrectly. Another is allowing the shooter to cover off in front of the individual targets during the first three strings on stage 1.

[boo radley]

HuskySig -- no, I'm talking about shooting around the barrel. I just don't remember the position requiring an awkward shift to engage T2 and T3....The targets are fairly close together, and you're still back, what -- 15y?

[Duane Thomas]

Well.. I shot in a very good 10 stage IDPA "club" match last weekend... and here are just a few of the challenges at that match that are not in any way represented in the classifer.

1 A blind shoot house with no walk through (two steels, a swinger, and 2 drop turners.. activated by doors or pads on the ground)

2 Drawing and going prone after the beep and shooting over a 2' high wall at 5 targets in priority sequence out to 18 yards with 2 non-threats in the way.

3 Shooting while laterally on the move to cover at targets which were moving laterally the opposite direction (on a rail)

4 Probably 8 swingers, 6 drop turners, and 4 clam shells

5 Shooting on the move toward a series of targets starting about 50 feet from the targets... engage two shots each free style.. reload and re-engage 2 shots each strong hand.. reload and re-engage 2 shots weak hand (all on the move)

Well, you're right, that does sound like a very good match. It also sound like a very prop-rich match. One of the overwhelming criteria for the IDPA classifier as it was developed was that it be able to be set up and run by clubs with a minimum of props and set-up and tear-down time. If you've got three IDPA targets, some lathe and targets stands, a barricade, a 55-gallon drum and 20 yards of range, you can run the IDPA classifier. If we added a blind shoot house, a 2" high wall, a railed mover, 8 swingers, 6 drop turners, and 4 clam shells, on the other hand....

[Duane Thomas]

1) Should require a cover garment. Wearing that damn vest makes a big, big difference in draws and reloads.

Not necessarily. Maybe it varies from person to person, but a few years ago I measured a series of my draws from concealment and without. On average the difference in my draw time between concealed and unconcealed was .08 second. The two movements are simply not that different.