trophies...

[rvb]

I'm wondering if anyone else is bothered by this...

If the "division champion" is also the first place in a given classification, why does the 2nd place competator get a 1st-place trophy, 3rd place gets a 2nd place trophy, etc?

I've gotten a few of these "1st place" trophies. When someone notices the 1st place trophy and asks about the match, I hate having to explain that I came in 2nd (after making up, err.. "explaining" all the valid excuses I have for not coming in first! haha ). Then I have to explain that, no, I did not beat up the winner and steal his trophy.

Does anyone else feel they (or others) have trophies they didn't earn due to this practice? First time I received a "higher than deserved" trophy I almost contacted the MD about the "mistake" until someone pointed out what had happened.

Thoughts?

-rvb

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Remember the Division Champion has beaten all the rest in his/her division thus being the Champion. If I was you I would go up a in your division and really earn your trophy ;-) Kidding now. It does not bother me at all. It is better than giving the Division Champion 2 trophies. Spread the hardwear around I say. Thanks, Eric

[Greg Bell]

Ryan,

I agree that is a goofy practice. IMO giving the 2nd place finisher a 1st place trophy is just wierd. I've also seen matches get this wrong.

[lneel]

I think it was done because there is definite performance differences across the divisions in IDPA. Meaning each division is a match in itself more so than a USPSA...CDP specifically is at a advantage in a slide lock reload vs an ESP shooter who has to stow a mag at a reload point. With that said there is also a fair chance an EX might beat all the MA shooters in a division, should he get 1st Place EX or Division Champ? While it is a bit weird it is ok in my opinion....and yes, I have won several DC trophies and have also received 1st Place MA (i.e. 1st Place loser)...just my opinion...YMMV.

[HighVelocity]

This has bothered me since my first sanctioned match. Say CDP MA is won by Joe Blow and Joe Blow is ALSO High Senior. He's going to get two trophies. If Joe Blow wins CDP MA and ALSO is DC, he should get a DC trophy and a 1st place CDP MA trophy.

My .02

Gary

[rvb]

I think it was done because there is definite performance differences across the divisions in IDPA. Meaning each division is a match in itself more so than a USPSA...CDP specifically is at a advantage in a slide lock reload vs an ESP shooter who has to stow a mag at a reload point. With that said there is also a fair chance an EX might beat all the MA shooters in a division, should he get 1st Place EX or Division Champ? While it is a bit weird it is ok in my opinion....and yes, I have won several DC trophies and have also received 1st Place MA (i.e. 1st Place loser)...just my opinion...YMMV.

I'm not talking about anything accross divisions. I think the DC should get the DC tophy AND the 1st-place MA/EX/SS/whatever. (edit, or just skip a 1st place trophy and go to 2nd)

Edited May 7, 2008 by rvb

[rvb]

Hello: Remember the Division Champion has beaten all the rest in his/her division thus being the Champion. If I was you I would go up a in your division and really earn your trophy ;-) Kidding now. It does not bother me at all. It is better than giving the Division Champion 2 trophies. Spread the hardwear around I say. Thanks, Eric

I've got a couple DC trophies and a couple "1st" place trophies, too. Believe me, DC is the one I'm after (as well as the make-believe hoa). But why is giving someone a trophy for a finish they didn't actually earn better than giving the DC 2 trophies? I thought "spreading the hardware" ended in pee-wee T-ball.

-rvb

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I guess I don't really appreciate the trophies as much as some do. I have trophies that are in boxes somewhere that I have won from different sports. I get my "kicks" from playing the sport and trying to do my best. That means I will win some and lose some. I seem to be losing more than winning right now ;-) I grew up with guys that thought they were going to the pros. When they didn't make it they were crushed. I always played for fun and still enjoy all the different sports I played as a kid. On the other side I don't think trophies should be given just for showing up. At our club everyone is going for 1st overall, not just in there class. After all everyone wants to beat the top dog. Thanks, Eric

[rvb]

Hello: I guess I don't really appreciate the trophies as much as some do. I have trophies that are in boxes somewhere that I have won from different sports. I get my "kicks" from playing the sport and trying to do my best. That means I will win some and lose some. I seem to be losing more than winning right now ;-) I grew up with guys that thought they were going to the pros. When they didn't make it they were crushed. I always played for fun and still enjoy all the different sports I played as a kid. On the other side I don't think trophies should be given just for showing up. At our club everyone is going for 1st overall, not just in there class. After all everyone wants to beat the top dog. Thanks, Eric

Hi AC6R,

I think we really are on the same page. Trophies are FAR from the top of the list of why I shoot. Although for that very reason I especially wonder why I'd want one I didn't earn.... I'd rather have a 2nd place trophy than get a 1st place trophy simply because the 1st place guy already got something. Although at a major match recently the RO thought I was nuts 'cause I argued FOR a penalty and was denied, so I might not be of sound mind...

-rvb

[MichiganShootist]

Worse than promoting a second place winner is some of the clubs out there who award many multiples.

In a state just South of here... I saw a guy take home the DC, First Place and High Senior in that division... all at one match.

IMO it depends on the number of shooters. At a really big match (like the indoor nationals) there were probably 70 SSP shooters. I've got no problem with giving out a DC and a first in each class....in that kind of a match.

Hell at a state USPSA match last summer there were 3 senior wheel gunners and the top senior got a trophy... I beat him and as a super senior didn't get one because there weren't enough Super Seniors... how much sense does that make???

[Steve J]

But, it REALLY is 1st Place. I heard this comment once by a very competitive fellow when he accepted a trophy for the same slot. First Loser. Great, thanks.

We really shouldn't be that hard on ourselves. Bill Jordan's "no second place winner" really does only apply to real gunfights.

[Bones]

I'm wondering if anyone else is bothered by this...

If the "division champion" is also the first place in a given classification, why does the 2nd place competator get a 1st-place trophy, 3rd place gets a 2nd place trophy, etc?

I've gotten a few of these "1st place" trophies. When someone notices the 1st place trophy and asks about the match, I hate having to explain that I came in 2nd (after making up, err.. "explaining" all the valid excuses I have for not coming in first! haha ). Then I have to explain that, no, I did not beat up the winner and steal his trophy.

Does anyone else feel they (or others) have trophies they didn't earn due to this practice? First time I received a "higher than deserved" trophy I almost contacted the MD about the "mistake" until someone pointed out what had happened.

Thoughts?

-rvb

If it causes you angst, you might consider not displaying them as a means of avoiding the discussion.

They are certainly earned because the competitor performed at some level that others did not. All winners show up and finish. On some days, that takes more effort than others.

I earned every one of my trophies. The personal value I assign to each is not the same thing.

Craig

[rvb]

They are certainly earned because the competitor performed at some level that others did not.

When you come in 2nd in your division and you get a first place trophy, how is that "earned?"

-rvb

[rvb]

Let me shed a little light on why I brought this up; I've always thought it weird but this put it back in the front of my mind and made me wonder what others thought of the prize policy....

This weekend I shot a match on the first day of shooting. A couple days later a buddy calls me after the awards and tells me I took 1st. I was very happy, especially given all my blunders at that match, until a few hours later when I was looking over the scores and realized I was 2nd. How can an organization expect to appear professional when there is confusion about what order people finish in?

If it causes you angst, you might consider not displaying them as a means of avoiding the discussion.

I wouldn't say there's any "angst" here, just annoyance at a weird prize policy.

Funny and true story: The only time it's really come up personally was after Nats last year... A couple family members who knew I went wanted to see my trophy and were completely confused why my trophy didn't match where I told them I finished. My mother even made a comment about how the liberal feel-good movement has invaded the gun culture.... How does one proudly display a trophy after hearing that from your mother!

[rvb]

Worse than promoting a second place winner is some of the clubs out there who award many multiples.

In a state just South of here... I saw a guy take home the DC, First Place and High Senior in that division... all at one match.

That sounds to me exactly how I'd like to see it done.

If he 1) was the fastest in his division, he should get DC

If he 2) was the fastest in his class (typically MA, sometimes EX), he should get "1st" in class

If he 3) was the fastest senior, he should get high senior.

If he 4) had been a 'she' and the fastest female, she should get high lady.

If he 5) had been the fastest vet, he should get high vet.

if he 6) was the fastest law enforcement, he should get high LEO.

If ONE person earned and received 6 trophies...... COOL!

Why would those trophies go to anyone else?

-rvb

Edited May 7, 2008 by rvb

[RobMoore]

The way I see it, the DC should be the 1st MA. It should go DC, 2nd MA, 3rd MA, ect, 1st EX, 2nd EX, ect ect ect

If it was an expert who wins DC, oh well, he is now a MA anyway, give him DC and the fastest MA gets the 2nd place award.

[MichiganShootist]

- 1 to six trophies for one person... come on.

Edited May 7, 2008 by MichiganShootist

[rvb]

- 1 to six trophies for one person... come on.

OK, I'll repeat my question: Why would those trophies go to anyone else?

I'll even add a question: Who should they go to if not the person who earned them (in this case the old female veteran cop)?

-rvb

[rvb]

The way I see it, the DC should be the 1st MA. It should go DC, 2nd MA, 3rd MA, ect, 1st EX, 2nd EX, ect ect ect

If it was an expert who wins DC, oh well, he is now a MA anyway, give him DC and the fastest MA gets the 2nd place award.

+1

As for the second part, I wouldn't even care if the first MA got the 1st MA trophy as the 1st EX -and- DC shot the match as an EX therefore wouldn't be MA until after the match, but that's splitting hairs.

eta: but I see how what you say would make it easier when pre-purchasing trophies, and I like that the DC would only get 1 trophy (my main point wasn't that the DC should get two trophies, just that 2nd place shouldn't get a 1st place trophy). so ++1 to everything you said.

-rvb

Edited May 7, 2008 by rvb

[Gregg K]

As for the second part, I wouldn't even care if the first MA got the 1st MA trophy as the 1st EX -and- DC shot the match as an EX therefore wouldn't be MA until after the match, but that's splitting hairs.

If an EXP won the DC it would not automatically make them a MA. In a lot cases he would not get a bump. They would still have to beat 9 others in his class or beat 10 people in his class and the one above. There would have to be enough participation in EXP and MA to get the necessary numbers for a bump.

I also figure that getting first for losing is a bit silly.

[Tree Rat]

Ryan....I thought that was goofy when we handed them out.

Never understood it at all.

Here is something that will make you cringe......the MD for said match gave himeself a DNF so as avoid the snivlling he received last year for being DC in a match in which he was MD.

Imagine how he felt when the DC went to a little kid who he beat by over 30 seconds......class act eitherway.

I made them put back my winning gun ticket for the real workers of the match......good karma for the whole event.

Hope your move goes smooth to Indy. They seem to like Barry and Hillary equally out there.

TR

[Greg Bell]

I thought "spreading the hardware" ended in pee-wee T-ball.

Can I hear an amen?

[Duane Thomas]

If an EXP won the DC it would not automatically make them a MA. In a lot cases he would not get a bump. They would still have to beat 9 others in his class or beat 10 people in his class and the one above. There would have to be enough participation in EXP and MA to get the necessary numbers for a bump.

Happened to me in 2002, even though I beat the second place - Master class - shooter by 20 seconds.

[Dan Burwell]

I thought "spreading the hardware" ended in pee-wee T-ball.

Can I hear an amen?

Amen

Last year at nationals I checked my score was 12th wooh hoo only went to the awards ceremony just to see what it was like. When they called me up for an 11th place trohpy I felt like the last place t-ball team collecting the boobie prize. Don't get me wrong I have it displayed proudly in my living room, but come on trophies for 12th place I mean 11th place.

Funny Last weekend same thing got third went to collect me trophy and it says 2nd place I thought something was wrong(ok I am a slow learner), tell my brother I got second place trophy he say oh you were the first looser I had to explain I was really right behind the first looser.

Any way good job down there in MD guys and Good shooting Ryan!

[SDM]

Ryan....I thought that was goofy when we handed them out.

Never understood it at all.

Here is something that will make you cringe......the MD for said match gave himeself a DNF so as avoid the snivlling he received last year for being DC in a match in which he was MD.

Imagine how he felt when the DC went to a little kid who he beat by over 30 seconds......class act eitherway.

I made them put back my winning gun ticket for the real workers of the match......good karma for the whole event.

Hope your move goes smooth to Indy. They seem to like Barry and Hillary equally out there.

TR

That "little kid" you mentioned beat a majority of the folks that shot the match. It's not his fault if the MD can't stand up to some scrutiny.