Why Not Have Weapon Transition Stages In Ipsc

[a-44978]

As beginner my first 3 gun match was in nc (viking tactics)

In my eyes this 3 gun stuff is fuuuuuuuuunnn,then i learn the difference between ipsc 3 gun and tactical 3 gun.Correct me if i'm wrong but isnt tactical 3 gun an unofficial term?If not it should be D@#$%&m it.

Then i find some local ipsc matches to shoot and .Very sanitized feeling

I'm not saying easier just not as much fun i guess

I have'nt poured over the rulebook but i bet weapon transitions are a no no

I felt safe when i did it, the rules were clear in nc.on the stages where you kept the rifle on you it had to be empty .good stage design helped.It was understood by all if you had a hot rifle when you were'nt supposed to you were DQ'd.the only exception i saw was a nasty jam

im not preparing for the martians to land i just think its fun

and thanks to kyle i was able to shoot day 2 without a malfunction(equipment) "thanks again!"

[kellyn]

Mulitgun stages are not verboten in IPSC/USPSA but they are less common than in other formats. However, the way Kyle runs his match would send an IPSC-trained RO into shock. Running around with an empty rifle strapped to you while blazing with your pistol will not likely be seen at the 3 Gun nationals. I really enjoy the way Kyle does it but his match is really for the fairly experienced gunhandler. There is a great deal of movement, reholstering, climbing, crawling, movement in and out of vehicles, etc. I'm not saying that his match his less safe (because it is NOT) but it certainly has less rules. It seems to me that it's up to the shooter to be safe and decisions are based upon common sense. SHOCKING! In any event, I doubt Kyle is about to draft a 50 page rule book and I did not see any unsafe gunhandling while I was there. Plus I would not want to mess with some of those ROs.

[rhino]

I always lobby for at least one stage with a transition when I am involved in planning a match, but I'm almost always shot down for "safety reasons."

The biggest obstacle, I think, is people who won't shoot without a fancy race holster.

[2alpha]

USPSA 3 gun is USPSA shooting with a pistol, a rifle, and a shotgun. The style doesn't change just because the firearm is different. USPSA has evolved into a competition oriented sport, the practical roots are long gone. There's not much chance of it going backwards, you're not going to see many want to go back to real holsters and guns. If you like that great, if you don't you'll have to look elsewhere for practical type competition. Not saying either one is better than the other just stating the facts. I have fun at all types of matches, the practical, the tactical, the semi practical tactical, and the pure competition matches. The thing is that even the so called tactical matches make some concessions to the sport of it, the difference is in the degree.

[Badkarma]

Transition stages make for a fun match. Our State 3 gun match is scheduled for August 30-31 in Sunny Oahu, Hawaii. Most of the stages are combinations. Start out with pistol, end with shotgun. Start with shotgun, move to rifle and finish with pistol.... well you get the idea.

We've taken the format of staging guns from the Cowboy action shooters and like the shooters at Superstition mountain, we transition only when the gun you have is empty.

[MattBurkett]

Badkarma, umm, I don't like your name.

JK, anyways isn't Hawaii a 10 round gun state? Has to make it a pain for a three gun match.

Take care,

[rishii]

matt, it's not a pain, you just reload alot more

[GordonB]

If want to do transitions and do it relatively safely use a dummy rifle/shotgun/handgun.

For example, if you want to simulate a transition from a rifle to a handgun...

shoot the rifle first... "safe" it (i.e. no mag, empty chamber, muzzle pointed at a safe direction) exchange it with the dummy rifle (usually at a table), sling the dummy rifle and then transition to the handgun. The shooter can then proceed with the stage with a simulated jammed/empty rifle.

Of course this method isn't as "sexy" as actually using a real rifle in the transition... but it is arguably safer.

Another cool and "safe" generic scenario is:

(Have a "safed" rifle on a table. Start with a dummy rifle and a loaded pistol holstered.)

Start with the dummy rifle aimed at the targets...

you experience a "jam" so you sling your (dummy)rifle and transition to the handgun.

You shoot and you move to the table with the rifle. You "safe" the pistol on the table and put the dummy rifle on the table. You then use the rifle to finish the stage.

With the above you are simulating a jam with the rifle. You transition to the handgun to solve the pressing problem and then you move to cover (the table) to fix the jam and you complete solving the problem.

[Badkarma]

Matt,

Hawaii is a ten round state, but like Ray says...we just reload more. To make things even more interesting the rules change from island to island. Here on Oahu, AR-15 are limited to 10 rounds, but on Maui they are not. Oahu tends to have more Mini-14 shooters or my favorite the pistol carbines in 9mm... can you say 32 round sten magazines.

...and I'm sorry if you don't like my name.... but I've been Badkarma for years.

[kurtm]

Gordon:

I like your idea! we could use those old drill team wooden rifles..you know the ones with the bolt that moves back and forth like real with the fake wooden bullet in it: Painted Safety Orange of course! Next a trip to the local toy store for cap guns to use for pistols ( to set the timers off!) We could all run through the stages in compleat safety and the R.O. would pick your hits for you!!! Think of the savings on tape!

This is one of those "degree" things, isn't it. Think of some of the old bulleseye shooters. They think that moving with a pistol in hand is so unsafe that all uspsa sport should be baned due to iminent death of all competitors! If the rifle/shotgun/pistol is empty and the mag out it is safe! Part of the "skill" challenge of multigun stages is to controll in a safe manor ALL of the weapons on or near you! If not, D.Q.!! We are all big kids here and I have yet to see anyone that doesn't grasp the concept of being safe at any of the non uspsa matches; but as I posted befor... it bothers the women and scares the horses...there fore " it can't be safe" think of the children! By the way we sometimes run stages where you carryTWO LOADED FIREARMS through out the whole stage....we'er goners!!! Save us!!! KURT

[MattBurkett]

"By the way we sometimes run stages where you carryTWO LOADED FIREARMS through out the whole stage....we'er goners!!! Save us!!! KURT"

OHMYGODKURTWHATTHEPHUKAREYOUTHINKING! Unbelievable letting people move with guns like they would if they were carrying them on the streets or out in the woods. YOU are GOING to HELL.

JK

I think the problem is dumbing down the sport for idiots. I don't think its nec, you just have to have RO's that are on top of them so that they don't hurt anyone and hopefully learn to be safe.

[Sterling White]

Matt....

I looked into hunting hogs while staying two weeks in the islands and just to take a firearm to the state is omg....a royal pain in the arse. I couldn't even imagine trying to take 3 guns and umpteen mags....let alone ammo! You think Maryland is regulated....Hawaii is worse.

You going to 3gun?

sterling

[MattBurkett]

gmw, Yeah, I will be at the 3 gun nationals. :-) I think that was what you were talking about.

Take care,

[GordonB]

KurtM,

Dude are you D.R. Middlebrooks in disguise?

Let's see:

... you know it all...(just like Middlebrooks)

Gordo:

It is ALWAYS faster to load while moving!!!!! Since Pacman and I load weak handed most of your thoughts don't apply. While moving I can see everything around me, especialy the ground I am traversing. Since all I have to see is just the very edge of the laoding port in my periferal vision, it becomes a non issue. More to the point of your post, we have tried the static thing, load like crazy and then run like crazy, it has always been slower than say the "slow walk" Eric aludes to ( even though with weak hand loading that slow walk is more like a quick smooth run). Static loading IS NOT the way to go!!!

Gordon:

Go back and read my first post on this subject, I am sure the "load like crazy.....run like crazy" would qualify for your type i. I would like to reiterate at this point..... ALWAYS SLOWER!!!

... and your passive/aggresive and condescending in your posts...

Gordon:

I like your idea! we could use those old drill team wooden rifles..you know the ones with the bolt that moves back and forth like real with the fake wooden bullet in it: Painted Safety Orange of course! Next a trip to the local toy store for cap guns to use for pistols ( to set the timers off!) We could all run through the stages in compleat safety and the R.O. would pick your hits for you!!! Think of the savings on tape!

This is one of those "degree" things, isn't it. Think of some of the old bulleseye shooters. They think that moving with a pistol in hand is so unsafe that all uspsa sport should be baned due to iminent death of all competitors! If the rifle/shotgun/pistol is empty and the mag out it is safe! Part of the "skill" challenge of multigun stages is to controll in a safe manor ALL of the weapons on or near you! If not, D.Q.!! We are all big kids here and I have yet to see anyone that doesn't grasp the concept of being safe at any of the non uspsa matches; but as I posted befor... it bothers the women and scares the horses...there fore " it can't be safe" think of the children! By the way we sometimes run stages where you carryTWO LOADED FIREARMS through out the whole stage....we'er goners!!! Save us!!! KURT

... you have some skill... (just like Middlebrooks)

I have seen the video and must (regrettably  ) HAIL KURT MILLER, the be.com shotgun reloading king. That is an awesome shotgun load you've got going there. I must now pray to Bennie Cooley for strength and guidance.

I guess it just me or the internet format... but your comming off like a jerk. (just like Middlebrooks)

[rhino]

I guess it just me or the internet format... but your comming off like a jerk. (just like Middlebrooks)

Dude, if you think the response in question was "comming [sic] off like a jerk," I would guess you have not been online too long, either here or elsewhere. That was pretty mild!

I don't know kurtm, and while his message wasn't the most diplomatic I've seen, it was far, far from being worthy of getting upset over it. It sounds like you really have an emotional attachment to your idea and you're taking it personally when someone dismisses it with a bit of sarcasm. It's not my business, but since you posted your feelings publically, I would recommend that you consider not taking it so seriously.

You'll also note that in the message you quoted, it was your ideas/words that were dismissed, not an ad hominem. When you resort to the name calling, you bring it to a different level that won't win you many friends or allies.

[kurtm]

GordonB...Sir!:

I get the idea that you really don't like D.R. Middlebrooks! ( You have the advantage on me on this one, as all I know is that he is a pistol shooter, some say a fine one). I do believe you are a pretty fair hand with a pistol also...I don't know, I don't stay up on the pistol side of things much, although I do know a few of the names ( master or grand master by now is it?) I know... get to the point. Since I don't shoot pistol all that much and have absolutely NO rating with one, and I wanted to know about a pistol technique, and asked ...say a G.M. such as yourself, I doubt I would keep reasking the question. I would file the info away and try it. It seemed to me, the people that responded to your post all said the same thing... That it was in fact slower to staticly reload than loading while moving. Now I know you are asking yourself what could this possible have to do with this JERK KurtM.... Well lo these last 15 years I have played the 3 gun game and have become somewhat skillful in the use of the shotgun. I was only tring to respond to your querry with the insight and knowledge I have gained from those years. It is always slower! when you responded by asking if anyone had tried it, again. I in a tounge in cheek way was meerly pointing out that YES we tried it ( the one quote about the type i load like crazy and run like crazy) This was not ment to offend, for this one I will say sorry you took it wrong!

As to the safety post. Place me firmly and unabashedly into your "JERK" colom if you wish!! This is one of my soap boxes!!! So many of the pistol only shooters want to water down 3-gun as to make it imposible to have multigun stages under the guize of ...well ...it just isn't safe. See, now that it is said that way if a person wants multigun stages, he is a JERK not even interested in safety!! This is kind of the old Democrat tactic of " have you stopped beating your wife"? very slick and oh so believable! For the last 15 years we have run 3-gun matches and compeated in 3-gun matches that have NOT run under the VERY restrictive rules some would like to emplace on 3-gun in general. NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN HURT DUE TO A.D.s or gun related problems. I have to agree with Matt Burkett ( may I use his name as it is one I know... come to think of it, I know Matt, not just the name)people are tring to "dumb down" the sport. I feel ( perhapse as strongly as you dislike D.R.) that we all are adults and can function at a SAFE and competent level with the "big four" rules and the 180. DON'T try to D.Q. me after you have watched me clear my rifle and then close the dust cover!!! Don't make me put down my real gun just so I can pick up "fluffy the pet gun" to run with. If you don't trust yourself to be safe, don't play, but don't tell me I can't be safe because you feel you can't be safe!!!........YEP!!!!!JERK!!!

As for the "some skill" comment, you would have no idea, as you are taking someone elses word for it, and trust me when I say....although you won't.... Kelly is questionable at best. I can say that because he is my friend and knows how I mean it. I wish you well on your search for knowledge.

P.S. Rhino is right... I am not a diplomat, nor do I play one on T.V. I usually tell it like I "think" it is......because you asked

[George]

Speaking to the original intent of this thread,

USPSA still doesn't know what to do when it comes to weapon transition stages (witness the 2002 3 gun nats), but they are trying. The Area 1 3 gun match did an OK job with the two combo stages they put on this year, bu they still had to use some fancy wordin' at the walk through to justify the unrealistic weapon clearing requirements imposed.

I shoot open and therefore have all the unpractical gear you can possibly have hanging off me and my guns, but I still consider it my responsibility to make sure that my gear stays with me, and my weapons are handled safely.

The RO's are there to look after everyones safety in the long run, but I have the responsibility to start with, and woe be to me if the RO has to step in. I hate dumbing things down in the name of lawyer induced safety issues. Lets face it, 3gun shooting using weapon transitions requires good gun handling skills on the part of the shooter, PERIOD.

I say let the crucible of competition test the shooter, and his gear to the limits.

--

Regards,

[a-44978]

Gordon,Kurt WHEEEEWY

I guess weapon transitions would'nt work so well for the open guys.

"fluffy the pet gun"very Dennis Miller(while were throwing names around)very good

Not taking sides but this is how we come up with new ideas,brain storming(scattered showers in my case)bouncing ideas off of each other.Laughing at ourselves can also be fun too.

I'm not much for the wooden gun idea and i can't top the "fluffy the pet gun"(still very funny )

After trying the "shoot one load three shoot one"shotgun exercise i have lots of practice to do before worrying about transitions 6+secs

remember why most of us do this (civilians),fun

Thanks for the feed back

[kurtm]

A-44978:

"Fluffy the pet gun" IS NOT mine! As a matter of fact Mass. Ayoob was the one that coined the term and it applied to this very drift... The safety thing, but I digress. In the matches we run ( not the regal we, RM3-G) we let the open guys kind of decide amongst themselves as to whether they want to run with said race holsters, or stage pistols, Rifles and shotguns are the same for everyone, if its multi-gun. Since open shoots against open it is only fare that they be allowed to have a say as to what they do! I would never stiffle OPEN as it is the test bed of firearms development!!!

I would like to take this time to point out that COWBOY shooters sometimes run with up to 4 guns on them at a time and any combonation of them are loaded at any one given time! Thier rule book is MUCH thinner than the USPSA book and yet no one has died yet ( that I know of) durring a COWBOY shoot. They even let people LOAD thier guns while others shoot the corse of fire to save time! They built thier sport on the concept of FUN!! And as A-44978 has aptly pointed out it should be fun!!! Trust and common sense go a long way in making sure FUN is a large element in any shoot! Thanks for the reminder. KURT

[Flexmoney]

OK...can somebody get me back on track?

It seems weapon transition and multi-gun stages are being mixed up here a bit...right?

We run multi-gun stages all the time here in Ohio (but we are rookies). We also have some rare transition type stuff. (We aren't likely advanced enough...nor do we practice enough...nor does everybody have the right equipment to carry this too far.)

[George]

We have been shooting multi-gun stages at our local club 3 gun matches for as long as I have been a member (I joined in 1989), and longer. We always abandon the previous gun for long established safety reasons (see my comment below).

We have carried hot pistols to start, and transitioned to them after discarding long gun(s) (oh my gawd! Hot Holstered Pistols). We have picked up pre-loaded longuns, and pistols, and made folks load empty weapons as they go to them. It all works. We haven't done re-holstering of (hot, or cold) pistols, or any retention/reusage of long guns because we have a set of range precedents (not rules) in place, and this has never been allowed in the past (I would like to see a change on this).

I notice that the folks with lotsa' pistol, but little long gun experience that come to these matches get sorted out pretty quickly as long as their pistol handling skills were good to start with (good habits transition to other usages without much thought). Malfunctioning with equipment is the biggest problem I see, and it has the most safety issues for the newbie because of the unfamiliar malfunction drills required to get the long guns going again when they puke. This can lead to lots of strange weapon manipulation ;~)

We take anyone with some "practical" shooting experience at our matches and guide the uninitiated as required. Typically, if you have enough gear to attend a 3 gun match, you have a modicum of skill and can handle the weapon manipulation required. Multi-tasking is a cross platform capability, and is usually present in anyone motivated enough to find out about, and get out to these type of specialty matches. IMHO capability is a self policing thing.

Regards,

[rhino]

Does anyone know whence arose the term "scrambler" with respect to multi-gun stages in 3-gun matches?

[Patrick Sweeney]

Last first; Scrambler is the fast-run field course at Gunsite, where the last shooting position is up in a tree. (8 shooting positions as I recall) A single non-falling steel target at 80 yards or so is the object of your attentions. I've done it with rifle, shotgun and handgun.

Multi-gun stages and transitions are not the same. We do multi-gun stages at our club (like the MI 3-Gun Champinships we just held)and it is relaitvely easy: just make sure you've got a table to ditch the first gun onto when you change.

Transition is tough: not everyone has a sling at all, let alone a tactical sling. You also have the problem of banging and dropping rifles or shotguns while someone is handling a loaded handgun. Definitely not a problem I'd want to hand to a newbie 3-gun shooter.

But, we can work these things out in time.

[George]

So I take it that "Transition" really means "Retention" and "Re-use" of the firearm.

Weapon "Transition" and "Re-use" can be done without "Retention" by tabling a weapon, and picking it back up (this we have done at our local matches).

I see no real reason pistols cannot be re-holstered safely after being cleared. Re-holstering a hot pistol on the fly isn't a big issue in my mind if you aren't a bozo, but it has never flown past the safety officers at our range because of the heated discussion it creates.

As for keeping a long gun in your posession, the V-Tac sling is the shjt here. I have found that any good sling (Nylon, or Leather) can allow a long gun to be draped muzzle down, and recovered. The V-Tac has the advantage of a top of buttstock attachment, and quick release adjustment, which make it easy to throw it around to your back too, but that brings up 180 problems without real good muzzle awareness/control. IMHO, these features are not required to hang the long gun off ya just to use another weapon.

I agree with Kurt that once a gun has been cleared, it is just a stick. Having it swing around while hanging muzzle down is no big issue as long as you are not requiring intense position contortions out of the shooter at that time. After all, it is up to the shooter to decide how to handle his gear safely, and how much abuse he is willing to let his gear take, and as Kurt said, different shooters can find ways to handle the transition (ie, allowing the staging, or recovery of tabled guns for folks without the right gear).

I still want to push for full on weapon transition (with retention and re-use) to be included at our next local 3 gun match. Wish me luck.

Regards,

[mike45]

I can see I am going to have to add a laptop computer to my list of things to pack when I go away on a weekend shoot......48 hours is a long time on this forum !!

One question - who is Middlemass