mike45 Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Cheers for the replies gents, I think I will always load the extra round out of habit now. I must admit that when shooting a course I need to go into it with a fixed frame of mind or I find when the beep goes I will suddenly start worrying about little fumble mistakes. In a comp I tend to be very focused but if I am still worrying about loading the extra or not / where exactly to stand for certain shots, or if the RO suddenly starts rushing you, etc then I find when I am loading my mind is actually thinking about getting things wrong and messing up - and guess what - I do. How do you guys prepare for a stage, I find if I walk around with the other shooters looking for the targets especially on a big field (long) stage, or a stage where you have to be precise to see the angles, I start getting confused and almost panicky (nervous disorder??) especially with all the other shooters trying to look as well. I tend to hang back and walk through it on my own or with close friends, so we can tune in together away from the crowds. I would imagine this is the most important time in a large comp where the 10 mins looking really means 10 mins and no more, hence you have to be totally focused or you spend the next hour waiting to shoot worrying your pants off and really confuse yourself. On the line, comp or not, I always have my little rituals of checking the positioning of my shells in their loops, counting off the number of shells I need to load prior to the one I turn upside down to know I have loaded enough, wiping my hands on my trousers (sweaty or not!) etc, despite having done this 20 times before in the previous 5 minuites. Again I guess this is nerves showing as watching the top guys they simply walk up, usually still bantering with their mates, (I dont speak to anyone at this stage) they say something like "how many plates is this one?" or "whats the start position?" and then kick the ass out of the stage. I guess being relaxed is the answer and they do love their horse tranquilisers. Any ideas how to zone in without taking prescriptive drugs ? cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ringram Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Nice to see some "locals" here, Mike and Neil.. Gearing up for the Nationals next week I suppose? Id like to see some comments on field stage preparation as per Mike45's request. I tend to do relatively well on short or speed stages, however fall to pieces on longer field stages. There is too much to remember, too many variations. Perhaps I just need to pick one and stick to it. Instead of making it up as I go along. Anyway generally I drop a good number of places on field stages, sometimes I push too hard and miss. (Actually most of the time) I also forget where to load and how many, especially if I miss. Hmm perhaps Ive answered my own question. 1: Plan the course and stick to the plan 2: Dont miss, it will screw up your loading counts Of course this assumed your/my "plan" is a good plan. This is where talking over the course with fellow shooters who you know are around or above your skill can result in a good selection. I used to shoot practical pistol and miss the 1sec 28 round reload ability. Too much single shell loading to figure out with the shotty. So yeah anyway, anyone with any more preparation comments? Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Mike45, Ringram: As per field course preparation. Make sure shoes are tied, apply sun screen as needed, drink lots of water as dehydration can hamper performance by up to 20%, wear knee/elbow pads as needed, carry at least the amount of ammo to shoot the stage twice, make sure twigs, dirt, and pieces of stage prop are cleaned from your shotgun from the last stage, clean any problems from the last stage from your mind, and remember to breath. Try not to have too many "rituals" you preform waiting for the beep, this takes your mind off the important things you need to be thinking about. Fidgiting about only decreases mental focus ( although I do like the style of the upside down shell deal Mike talked about, I would never do it myself as I know they just don't go into the chamber rim first, and sure as hell I would grab it and try to load it) Banter at this point does have a calming effect and is not nearly distracting as tring to remember if you have tapped your foot 3 times like the ritual demands. The questions like "how many is this"....or "whats the start position" are good because they are MENTAL KEYS!!!! Okay now for the filler, ( stuff that only pertains to the individuall and no one else, fancy way to say ..." it works for me...but.) Try not to think of the course as "ONE BIG STRING"; once again kind of like a hedgehog in the headlights, they tend to see the whole car. Don,t try to see everything at ounce! If you can't remember 8 things, go with 6. There is NO WAY I can remember 28 individual targets, but I can remember 4 batches of 6 and one batch of 4. Try to pick one KEY target per batch, I use the most dificult as my key. If I shoot my key last at each position I know I have got the rest at that position...I don't have to think, which is really good for me! Now since my gun holds....let,s say 14, I know I have to load 14 more....so after engaging my key target, AND WHILE MOVING to my next position I know I have to load 4 each time, except the last time I only need to load 2, and even if I forget and load 4 I only cost myself the time to load 2 extra rounds. Now I only have 5 things to think about shooting wise and only one thing loading wise 4,4,4,2 the 2 is the thinking thing as EVERYTHING ELSE is always loading 4! Durring the walk through the first time just absorb the whole thing....general layout. Second time through, movement. Third time, batch the targets and talk to friends if you have any present and get their take on the deal. 4th time through until they tell you no more, walk it like you are going to shoot it and plan your reloads. Sit down and mentaly see it being shot.....and then kick back!!!! RELAX!!!! When you walk up to the line...breath, plant your self like an oak tree, and ask " whats the start position".....BREATH!! tell the R.O. " let,s play" and go have fun!!!! Remember no one stage is going to win the match...but one stage can certainly loose the match. BUT ABOVE ALL HAVE FUN! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike45 Posted June 2, 2003 Author Share Posted June 2, 2003 Mr Ingram I presume....Rich, good to see you taking part, you will not be dissapointed, these guys really know their stuff. It seems you have the reverse problems to me, I have no probs on the field stages, its those little ones where I miss, that means an extra 2 seconds which puts you at 70% which I hate ! If you dont mind me saying I must admit when I have been ROing you at comps in the past and observations at our club, you are right in what you say, you blitz the speed shoots and short stages and lose points on the big-uns. And as Brucie says 'points mean prizes'. At the last comp at Harlow in that long 28 plate stage you seemed to phase out after shooting the ones by the barrels halfway through and if I remember correctly finished with 4 rounds loaded. You do run bloody fast though, I had trouble keeping up. It was apparent when you joined that soon you would be up in the rankings and I know there are a few top guys who watch you shoot and are worried that they will be competing against you. (I'll tell you their names, and weaknesses at the Chamionships this weekend...for the price of a pint) Try and get squadded with people like Barry S, Ade, Graham Smith, Dave Clegg and the like and they can give the best, honest, and reliable advice on those long stages and explain how they shoot them and why. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ringram Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Brilliant, thanks Kurt, Ive been trying to figure out how to approach these stages for a while. I appreciate the help. Mike45, yeah actually I shot top International at the Aussie nationals in pistol in 93, plus was used to being in the top 3 in NZ for a few years. So my rustyness in shotgun is hopefully only temporary.. you can tell the others to beware At the time my mindgame wasnt quite up to the task, I think I have more focus now. We will see. I wont be happy until I get well into master anyway. Anyway its nice to know I can impress the big boys now and again. Its just a pity in the UK we can only really shoot once a month. Unless of course you feel like a 300 mile trip somewhere. Maybe a weekend at shield practicing now and again would be a good idea.. I seem to recall some blokes setting off there to do so.. JamesH perhaps? I notice BarryS figuring up the list, he shoots well. DaveC and I chat quite a bit now.. I think it was after I blew 2 sec off his time on a 12sec stage. Anyway, I think Ill go and try some weakhand loading with my shotgun mounted Thanks guys.. Ill be definately hanging around the message board in the future. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike45 Posted June 2, 2003 Author Share Posted June 2, 2003 (edited) Rich, We have been moderated, thats forum talk for going off the subject and waffling amongst ourselves, hence we sort of get told off, but not so severely that there is a delta force team absailing down our rooftops....you really have to upset the moderators for that ! There maybe a new range opening down the M3 soon that is a twice monthly venue that will enable more practicing, Thinking about the long stages, I would really recommend you doing an RO course, you obviously have to commit more but you really get to see how to, and not to shoot a stage. I have been RO'ing for 2 years now and it really pays off watching the masters shoot and how they plan a stage. Once or twice they have done things that no one in the whole comp had thought of and that is impressive. Plus you get to know everyone, not get paid, end up knackered and have the piss taken out of you for two days.... priceless. You will get to see KurtM working his loading magic in Italy if you are coming out to play. (just read the other thread - I guess your passport is packed already) cheers Edited June 2, 2003 by mike45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paraman1 Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 I use a visualization excercise before I shoot a stage to help me mentally focus . 1. I do my walk through and build the plan in my head for shooting what I would consider a "PERFECT" stage . No misses , no extra shots and no fumbled reloads , as i said "PERFECT" . 2. Having my plan in mind , if I am not the first shooter I watch the other shooters and how they shoot the stage . If (and this is a huge If) I see someone shoot it differently than I would and it looks like something that I can do I will try to incorporate this into my "PERFECT" stage plan . 3. When I am 2 shooters away from shooting I pass off whatever duties I have been performing to another shooter to clear my mind and get mentally prepared . 4. I will close my eyes and visualize me shooting the "PERFECT" stage in my mind , again with no misses , no extra shots and no fumbled reloads . All my shots go right into the A-zone or the center of the steel I am shooting . I go through it in my mind slowly , seeing every bullet making its perfect flight and hitting the target perfectly , seeing the magwell of my firearm and inserting the shells (or magazine) perfectly . I generally run this through my head as many times as I can with my eyes shut before I am called to the line . 5. I then shoot the stage holding to my plan that I have now practiced in my head as fast as I can without making any mistakes . If you have a miss make it up and remember that you will have to reload earlier in the stage or add an extra shell in your next reload . 6. When finished shooting the stage I then look at all my targets to make sure they are scored correctly and that I have hopefully hit them where I intended to . 7. I then go back to my gun bag and refill all my ammunition carriers (magazines , shotgun belts , etc. , etc.) so that I am prepared to shoot the next stage the minute I get there (No half loaded magazines or fumbling for shells when called to the line) and thus have no distractions . 8. As soon as I am finished making sure I am ready for the next stage I resume helping run the stage . Remember that you paid to shoot this match and although we are commited to helping run our squad your first commitment should be to make sure YOU are ready to do your thing to the best of YOUR ability . If that means your squad runs a little more slowly , so be it . And remember , this is supposed to be fun . If it wasn't why the heck would we spend our day off doing it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike45 Posted June 3, 2003 Author Share Posted June 3, 2003 Thanks for your reply Paraman, good advice. Going back to the loading / moving issue I was always a fan of the moving theory, and especially after my practice session tonight. I tried this 10 times both ways - gun in shoulder pointed at target, bolt closed, on the bleep (timer set for par of 5 seconds), take a shot at the target, load 4 and move 15 feet in straight line to end up at a charge line aiming at a target off to the right at about 70% from direction of travel. (as if shooting round a barricade, being sad I even set a barricade up - lucky its a big garage!). On NONE of the 10 attempts at standing still and loading 4 and then really sprinting to the position to shoot the last one could I make it. I was always in the process of mounting the gun when the 5 secs ran out, and swaying all over the place due to stopping sharply. I know I can load 4 rounds in about 3 - 3.5 seconds and this gave me about 1 - 1.5 seconds to run, stop and aim. In the slow shuffling and loading attempts, 9 out of 10 times I had taken the final shot in about 4 - 4.5 seconds, well below the par of 5, and this was simply at a medium walk. The one I failed on was when I dropped a round. Now I know it works for sure but dont really know why as it seems so slow in the loading! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 Going back to the loading / moving issue DOH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddS Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Shotgunning is very different than shooting the other two guns. As for the loading question, it is similar only in the fact that smooth is fast. When needing to cover distance, try and move only as quickly as you need to get the appropriate number of shells loaded. If you have 25 feet to travel and one shell to load, move quickly as possible, just like a pistol mag change. If, one the other hand you have the need to load 3 or 4 in the same distance, move on a steady gliding walk. You will not benefit at all from arriving to shooting position too early, still trying to stuff shells. You can help your time by moving slower and making a smooth load as long as you finish loading just as you get into the shooting position. The slower movement helps in making a smoother load. You just don't want to be standing still if you can help it. The only time I vary from this is when I have a really large number of shells to load, I try to get into position quickly and concentrate on being as quick as possible. Reading back over this, I don't know if it makes any sense, I have some good experience in shotgunning though, really! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 And your going to have a really bad exp. when I kick your butt in Alabama todd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddS Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 It's healthy to have a dream Grandpa! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Moore Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 a local club is having a shotgun only fun match at the end of the month, i can't wait. i've been looking at www.3gungear.com under the shotgun section and i like the rigs this guy is wearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Well Benny Hill did indeed show Todd a bad experience......and everybody else!!! He stomped us all into the Alabama dirt! I would of liked to say it was because Todd and others cratered but that wasn't the case. Benny was smooth as silk and never missed one single target, 178 of them for the whole match. He is the KING!!!! Kelly, stop worshiping Bennie as the strong hand loader...Jeff Cramblit should be your guy!! He is faster loading of an arm band than I am loading the way I do... not by much but it is noticeable. I still feel that over all the weak hand loading is better because it doesn't matter which way you are moving the loading is the same where as the strong hand technique is definitly a left to right movement technique, but I must say for pure get the shells into the gun Jeff is the KING!!! But befor you start wipeing my nose in this fact; understand that I may be second to Jeff in loading speed, I was second to Benny and maybe could of beat him but he got me by only 30 points after I completely zeroed a 60 point speed shoot.......OOPS!!! Jeff did have a few problems and I think barring those he would have had me also. It was a great match and I highly recomend it. And just so you ndon't think I am just a limited snobb Tony Holmes won the open division. Good job Tony!!!!! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Down with Kurt Miller, ALL HAIL JEFF CRAMBLIT!!!!!!! For a couple of weeks, I was worried I would have to start practicing weak hand loading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickster Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Kellyn, Kurtm Any idea where the scores from Jeff's shotgun championship match may be found? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Mickster: They can be found on the Moss Branch web site ( I find them by typing moss branch shooting range and doing a search). Don't expect to see a final deal though as the results are once again under review, maybe for the 5th time. I went from first to second after Benny Hill and I noticed a scoring error. We both told Jeff about it! I have since slipped from second to sixth, and I have noticed yet an other scoring error in my results and one other persons. I think Jeff's scoring program or computer has been corrupted and he is furiously tring to get it straightened out. Second, sixth or what ever it was still a great match!!KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 No, I've been looking but I can't find them anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 . . . Tony Holmes won the open division. Good job Tony!!!!! Tony's not a bad little shooter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickster Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Thanks for the info to get to the website with the results Kurtm. Any time you get to shoot 13 stages of rip snortin shotgunnin in one day it's gotta be a good time. It looks like Jeff threw out stage 10 (Road Rage) or else it was missed in the results. Sure was fun though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Mickster: Stage 10 is indeed in there! He just didn't break it out as it was points only. So in my case if every thing adds up the right way ( we shall see) at the end you would add 90 match points as I only hit 9 of those pesky birds. I must need to spend more time on a tail gate bird hunting. Todd Salmon, on the other hand, must spend plenty of time back there as he got 13 birds. I know you are thinking thats not so bad..... but he only shot 12 rounds! That lucky&&%$$#$$%^@#!~!@$#%&*&(*&^. ah but I digress! The match was OUT STANDING!! The scoring problems are just part of what can happen when you move a computer across the state and reset it up and hope all is well. I am NOT UPSET in the least. I have already walked in "those" shoes and wish Jeff nothing but the best. I had my 15 minutes of glory, the unfortunate part is that Benny will be insufferable for years to come......and rightly so!!!! No matter how you score it, he stomped our butts!!! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 I figured Todd was the type to shoot birds on the ground, or off power lines, or out of trees Has Bennie weighed in on how he loads a limited shotgun?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 Kurt, sorry I didn't get to make the match, some other time, a better time I hope. And you are right, Mr. Modest is rather proud of himself and you guys will have to listen to it for a while. Kelly, Bennie loads stronghand from the sidesaddle and sleeve. Maybe not the fastest, but he is smooth and when I talked to him after he got back he said accuracy was the key deal there. Not a extra shot all day did it. Hope I get to go next year. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 LKYTX: I was sorry to here you couldn't make it, But I plan on doing it next year, as does Todd and Benny. I will probable see you some time this summer as I am not to far from you guys now!! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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