Set Me straight, Please

[Teejo]

OK all,

I shot bullseye rifle for years and am just getting rolling w/ Handguns (Big difference) I own a SA loaded 1911 and have recently picked up a glock 22. While I love the feel of the 1911, I cant say I shoot it significantly better than the Glock. I will say the the shorter barrell on the 22 make the recoil a bit more difficult to manage and I feel like I need to make a decision on where to put my effort and money so I can focus on being a solid shooter in USPSA. Yes, both of these guns shoot better than me but I can put some money into some basics like better sights, trigger etc so that as my skills grow I will have a gun that will be competetive. Based on the following concerns, I would love to get some feedback to help me decide what to do.

Glock upgrades are cheap and easy to find. (sights, trigger job etc. Many drop ins) But I feel like I should sell the 22 and go with a 35, (cheaper ammo, full size etc.) I just feel like I wont have a platform that can continue to grow with me

1911 - More expensive to do basic upgrades (need a smith for everything) More expensive to buy ammo (or reload for that matter) But is a platform that can grow with me.

I'd love to sell the G22, buy a G35 and shoot both the 1911 and the glock. I just think the difference in the guns will slow down my learning process as opposed to focusing on one platform.

I know that ultimately this is a matter of choice, but as of right now I'm basically torn 50/50. I would just be interested if any one out there had a hard time deciding which platform to start with and whether they are happy with the decision they made. While I have the funds to pursue the sport (Well, maybe....) I have to narrow my focus starting off

Confused..............

[Merlin Orr]

Going with the G22 or the G35 will save you a couple of grand initally... But the money saved now is a drop in the bucket to the totals you will rack up with ANY platform in the long term. If you are going to shoot limited you have to look at a wide body gun anyway. Figure an S_I setup for 4K or the Glock for 1200.00 ~.....

YMMV yada yada...

[XD Niner]

Your Springer Loaded is ready to go now. I shot mine in L-10 for a couple of years. The only modifications I made to it were:

1. Grips (strictly personal preference and you can do it yourself.)

2. One piece FLGR (ditto)

3. Brazos fiber optic front sight (again, strictly personal preference but it will need a smith. I shot the OEM singht for six months.)

4. Trigger job ($75 from local smith.)

That was pretty much it. I do reload for about half the cost of WWB or Blazer Brass but shot both of those for over a year.

It is a hoot to shoot those big bullets!

[Teejo]

Going with the G22 or the G35 will save you a couple of grand initally... But the money saved now is a drop in the bucket to the totals you will rack up with ANY platform in the long term. If you are going to shoot limited you have to look at a wide body gun anyway. Figure an S_I setup for 4K or the Glock for 1200.00 ~.....

YMMV yada yada...

Thanks for the thoughts Merlin. I guess thats my dilemna. I can put a couple K into this now to get myself up and running. I guess I want to pick the platform that I can get the most mileage out of for awhile since I know that ultimately I will upgrade all the gear and spend a ton more. With the 1911 am I pretty much pinned to SS and L-10? Would a basically stock pistol be at a major disadvantage in anything other than SS? If that the case, I cant help but lean towards the G35, put enough money in so that I could compete (from an equipment standpoint in limited and L-10. (I think some of the basic upgrades to the gear may push me out of production quickly) Decisions, Decisions..............

Edited April 1, 2008 by Teejo

[Paul Burtchell]

Oh boy, where to begin. Neither gun will hold you back. There are shooters on this forum that have taken either of those guns all the way to Master or Grand Master.

You are going to get alot of varied responses, and ultimately you are right ,it is a personal decision.

I switched back and forth between GLOCKs, 1911 and 2011 platforms all last year. I do feel it slowed my progression down a little, but I really learned what my likes and dislikes were. I owned and traded 3 different 1911's including Les Baers and Wilson Combats, I owned and traded a GLOCK 34 and Vanek custom GLOCK 24. I finally purchased a Benny Hill built 2011 STI frame SVI slide bushing barrel gun that I shoot better than any of the others. The STI is now with Benny getting a bull barrel fitted so I can shoot it in both IDPA and USPSA.

For me the very different grip angles between the GLOCKS and the 1911/2011 platform is a tough transition.

My opinion on what you should do: Sell both the 1911 AND the GLOCK 22 and buy new or gently used S_I that has been built by one of the expert gunsmiths that frequent this forum. There are several. It is the firearm of our sport. There are a million other things you could do, but you asked for our opinions, and that's mine.

Edited April 1, 2008 by baerburtchell

[Teejo]

Oh boy, where to begin. Neither gun will hold you back. There are shooters on this forum that have taken either of those guns all the way to Master and/or Grand Master.

You are going to get alot of varied responses, and ultimately you are right ,it is a personal decision.

I switched back and forth between GLOCKs, 1911 and 2011 platforms all last year. I do feel it slowed my progression down a little, but I really learned what my likes and dislikes were. I owned and traded 3 different 1911's including Les Baers and Wilson Combats, I owned and traded a GLOCK 34 and Vanek custom GLOCK 24. I finally purchased a Benny Hill built 2011 STI frame SVI slide bushing barrel gun that I shoot better than any of the others. The STI is now with Benny getting a bull barrel fitted so I can shoot it in both IDPA and USPSA.

For me the very different grip angles between the GLOCKS and the 1911/2011 platform is a tough transition.

My opinion on what you should do: Sell both the 1911 AND the GLOCK 22 and buy new or gently used S_I that has been built by one of the expert gunsmiths that frequent this forum. There are several. It is the firearm of our sport. There are a million other things you could do, but you asked for our opinions, and that's mine.

I have thought about doing just that. I am concerned that I might force myself into divisions where my skills were well behind my equipment. Not the worse scenario but...... I would like to be competetive along the way. I could sell all my gear, buy a basic race gun and grow into it.... But I would rather at least be able to compete along the way.

[Flexmoney]

Dear Confused,

The first question that I like to ask is whether or not you are reloading? If you aren't, then cost of ammo becomes a factor (for almost everyone, I think). Buying 40...or, especially 45...off the shelf is just expensive. Off the shelf 40 works in the Glocks, but is not the best for the STI-style guns (they like ammo loaded a bit longer than spec.).

You can setup a G22 to be almost identical to a G35. The G35 will weigh a few ounces more and have a bit more sight radius. Not that much of a difference. (Where the 1911 will weigh a pound more.)

I like to suggest that shooters start out with a G17 or G34 in 9mm and shoot Production..especially if they aren't reloading. The ammo is cheaper, and isn't quite as harsh.

[Paul Burtchell]

There are crappy shooters with awesome guns in every division

Edited April 1, 2008 by baerburtchell

[Teejo]

Flex, I do reload the .45 and am currently upgrading to a 550 to keep up with my shooting. If I stay with the GLOCK, I will have to pick up some dies and reload .40. Either way, reloading is a must to control costs where I can.

Baerburt, Thanks for the positive thoughts Does that that beat being a crappy shooter with a crappy gun??? Not sure where I want to fall....

Terry

[Paul Burtchell]

Flex, I do reload the .45 and am currently upgrading to a 550 to keep up with my shooting. If I stay with the GLOCK, I will have to pick up some dies and reload .40. Either way, reloading is a must to control costs where I can.

Baerburt, Thanks for the positive thoughts Does that that beat being a crappy shooter with a crappy gun??? Not sure where I want to fall....

Terry

I'm glad you caught my humor. I was hoping I had not offended. Definitely better to be a crappy shooter with a great gun. (That pretty much describes me).

On a serious note, Flex gave you some good advice., as did XD and Merlin. It really boils down to personal preference.

Edited April 1, 2008 by baerburtchell

[DonT]

There are crappy shooters with awesome guns in every division

Hey, I resemble that remark

[North]

I just read Matt Burketts "practical shooting manual" One of the many lessons i learned because it justifies spending money on guns is

"never let equipment hold you back."

Sure many folks have taken a semi-stock Glock or a 1911 to master or GM levels, But I bet they would have done it quicker with S_I. I think most shooters will progress faster with better equipment.

So if you are happy being a D or C shooter and enjoy the matches fine stick with your Glock or semi stock 1911.

I prefer the 1911 by the way. I started with a stainless Springfield 1911 loaded model. I changed out the sights to a adjustable STI for Novak (TAS) and a Dawson Fiber optic; added a Wilson mag well, and slapped in a Nowlin triggerjob kit. You can do a lot of the minor type mods with a little mechanical ability and good parts.

If you want to go as far and as fast you can get the best equipment you can.

If you shoot 12500 rounds in a year you will have spent around $1500. That is just for ammo. assumeing you can load for 12 cents a round. You still have match fee's; club member ship and travel expensies to any major or out of town matches.

Bottom line, get the gun you want; it really is least expensive investment you will make in competition shooting. However, you should try to shoot as many different type of guns as you can, before you spend money on a dedicated competition pistol.

[BR]

Hey Teejo-

I grew up in Medina, OH, just up the road from Wadsworth. Anyway, I first suggest investing in a Dillon. Reloading will soon become your best friend. Second, I suggest giving production division a try. Your G22 will be great if you reload for minor, and production is a growing and highly competitive division. You have to learn to plan your stages around a ten round mag limit, and will have to develop skill proficiency in shooting A's and in mag changes. Both skills are essential in every division. Use your G22 or get a used G17 or 34, four or five extra mags [$80 for glock, $500 for tuned sti], a Dillon from Brian, a bunch of bullets, and some powder and primers. Brian's book and Steve Anderson's dry fire book are great. CR Speed belt, some pouches, and a blade-tech or comp-tac holster and you're good to go. Enjoy.

-br

Edited April 1, 2008 by joker22

[ChrisStock]

There are crappy shooters with awesome guns in every division

Yep

I had to drive 3 different pistols the last year to find what suited me best... an FNP-9( too many puke outs for me), an M&P .40 (tricked out for Limited or Production -solid pistol), and finally my CZ SP01. I have shot in Limited and Production to see what suits me best as well. I settled on primarily shooting Production division with the CZ, as I think that I found what feels best to me. You and only you will know what feels best in your hands and what you're the most productive with. Everything you listed is capable of taking you all of the way...as far as you're willing to go, at any rate.

[Still Praying]

FWIW, it sounds to me like the first thing to do is shoot what you have. Don't worry about how well you're doing now. Just learn how to play the game. You'll know when the gun is holding you back. Shooting Production is a great way to do this (learn the game). Joker22 made some good points about this. If you have to buy something I would say the G-34. It's 9mm, cheaper to shoot = more practice and with a few things like new sights, grip tape and a lighter recoil spring you're on your way to GM for less then a grand. This includes the dies for your new 550. If someone said they have $5000 to spend on this sport this year. I would say $1000 for the gear (G-34) and $4000 for amo and every match you can shoot. That would get you farther in this sport than the other way around.

Before you're done with this sport you will have bought at least 4 or 5 guns. So for now just ask other shooters to let you shoot their guns (to find what you like) and pay more attention to what you learn and less attention to the match scores. Most of all, Be safe and have a good time.

Good luck

Ronnie

For the record, I like Open.

[Duane Thomas]

Sure many folks have taken a semi-stock Glock or a 1911 to master or GM levels, But I bet they would have done it quicker with S_I. I think most shooters will progress faster with better equipment.

So if you are happy being a D or C shooter and enjoy the matches fine stick with your Glock or semi stock 1911.

Oy. Thus far my semi-stock Glock has taken me to Master in IDPA SSP, and I'm currently working on ESP, as well. My single stack 1911 .45 has taken me a few percentage points away from Limited-10 Master in USPSA - and I say that as someone who hasn't shot a classifier in Lim-10 in, like, a few years. (REALLY need to get back to that and knock out those last few percentage points. It's on my To Do list. Really.) It also won me an IDPA state championship a few years ago.

Teejo,

Which sort of gun(s) a shooter prefers is, I think, greatly dependent on their personality. To some folks, it just makes no sense to not have every possible technological advantage. Such shooters go for Open.

Some folks want every technological advantage they can get and still have something that just might be - or at least relates significantly to - a gun they could actually carry concealed. Such shooters tend toward Limited. I was talking to Robbie Leatham about a year ago, and he has a concept he calls "a real gun". A real gun in Robbie-land is something you could actually carry and use for self-defense, and, a paraphrase here, but this is close, "A Limited division pistol is still a real gun. Maybe barely, but still...."

For some folks the thrill is to go out and kick butt using only basic equipment. Such shooters tend toward Single Stack or Production division.

There is no right or wrong to any of these choices, it just depends on what you like.

Like Flex, if you didn't reload I'd suggest a Glock 17 or 34 for the advantage of easily available, low cost factory ammo that's already loaded right around the desired power factor. For you, since you reload, and apparently will continue to do so, I'd suggest sticking with your Glock 22, dropping the recoil spring weight, and working up a good, reliable .40 Minor load. You'll have a platform that, if you work at it - which you'd have to do with any platform anyway - can take you as far as you want to go, at a significantly less painful buy-in than a tricked-out 1911.

Also bear in mind that, depending on the skill level of your pistolsmith, it's quite possible to customize a 1911 to the point it no longer works. That's a lot of money wasted. A lightly massaged Glock, OTOH, will not only cost much less, you can pretty much bet the farm it's going to go bang every time you pull the trigger.

Moving on, please bear with me while I blather a bit since I'm in thoughtful mode today.

As our skill levels as shooters progress, there is a tendency to become really impatient with any perceived shortfall in our equipment that stands in the way of maximum performance. We experient, we try this, we try that. The thing is, a significant percentage of us eventually find that we've been looking in the wrong place, and the equipment really isn't all that important. Sure, get a gun that works for you, have whatever modifications will improve it performed - which you may well, in time, discover is a whole lot less than you thought. But eventually, if we travel far enough down the path, we find that shooting is at least 95 percent mental, the equipment is maybe five percent of the equation. OTOH, it's easy to tweak equipment - improving skills sets, and especially improving minds, is considerably harder, it takes a lot more time and work.

Some people just like dinking with the equipment. They tend to be gadget freaks in general, I notice. Their cell phone has more features than a Swiss Army knife, their car is equipped with GPS, a compass and a latte machine, etc. And that's cool; if you're one of those people then wallow in it, and more power to you. For the rest of us, I really think that if we just got ourselves a good, basic gun, then forgot about it and focused on our skill set and the mental game, we'd all be a lot better off, and progress further, faster.

[Teejo]

Sure many folks have taken a semi-stock Glock or a 1911 to master or GM levels, But I bet they would have done it quicker with S_I. I think most shooters will progress faster with better equipment.

So if you are happy being a D or C shooter and enjoy the matches fine stick with your Glock or semi stock 1911.

Oy. Thus far my semi-stock Glock has taken me to Master in IDPA SSP, and I'm currently working on ESP, as well. My single stack 1911 .45 has taken me a few percentage points away from Limited-10 Master in USPSA - and I say that as someone who hasn't shot a classifier in Lim-10 in, like, a few years. (REALLY need to get back to that and knock out those last few percentage points. It's on my To Do list. Really.) It also won me an IDPA state championship a few years ago.

Teejo,

Which sort of gun(s) a shooter prefers is, I think, greatly dependent on their personality. To some folks, it just makes no sense to not have every possible technological advantage. Such shooters go for Open.

Some folks want every technological advantage they can get and still have something that just might be - or at least relates significantly to - a gun they could actually carry concealed. Such shooters tend toward Limited. I was talking to Robbie Leatham about a year ago, and he has a concept he calls "a real gun". A real gun in Robbie-land is something you could actually carry and use for self-defense, and, a paraphrase here, but this is close, "A Limited division pistol is still a real gun. Maybe barely, but still...."

For some folks the thrill is to go out and kick butt using only basic equipment. Such shooters tend toward Single Stack or Production division.

There is no right or wrong to any of these choices, it just depends on what you like.

Like Flex, if you didn't reload I'd suggest a Glock 17 or 34 for the advantage of easily available, low cost factory ammo that's already loaded right around the desired power factor. For you, since you reload, and apparently will continue to do so, I'd suggest sticking with your Glock 22, dropping the recoil spring weight, and working up a good, reliable .40 Minor load. You'll have a platform that, if you work at it - which you'd have to do with any platform anyway - can take you as far as you want to go, at a significantly less painful buy-in than a tricked-out 1911.

Also bear in mind that, depending on the skill level of your pistolsmith, it's quite possible to customize a 1911 to the point it no longer works. That's a lot of money wasted. A lightly massaged Glock, OTOH, will not only cost much less, you can pretty much bet the farm it's going to go bang every time you pull the trigger.

Moving on, please bear with me while I blather a bit since I'm in thoughtful mode today.

As our skill levels as shooters progress, there is a tendency to become really impatient with any perceived shortfall in our equipment that stands in the way of maximum performance. We experient, we try this, we try that. The thing is, a significant percentage of us eventually find that we've been looking in the wrong place, and the equipment really isn't all that important. Sure, get a gun that works for you, have whatever modifications will improve it performed - which you may well, in time, discover is a whole lot less than you thought. But eventually, if we travel far enough down the path, we find that shooting is at least 95 percent mental, the equipment is maybe five percent of the equation. OTOH, it's easy to tweak equipment - improving skills sets, and especially improving minds, is considerably harder, it takes a lot more time and work.

Some people just like dinking with the equipment. They tend to be gadget freaks in general, I notice. Their cell phone has more features than a Swiss Army knife, their car is equipped with GPS, a compass and a latte machine, etc. And that's cool; if you're one of those people then wallow in it, and more power to you. For the rest of us, I really think that if we just got ourselves a good, basic gun, then forgot about it and focused on our skill set and the mental game, we'd all be a lot better off, and progress further, faster.

Thank you all for some great advice. I will focus on the primary task at hand and work on the skill first then worry about the equipment as I go. I'll do some of the minor tweaks (Trigger, sights etc) on both the GLOCK and the 1911 and go from there. Just want to give myself as good an equipment start as possible while still working within a budget. Already learning w/ about 4 range trips a week that this is not a cheap hobby and I'm sure it will only get worse

Terry

[Allgoodhits]

OK all,

I shot bullseye rifle for years and am just getting rolling w/ Handguns (Big difference) I own a SA loaded 1911 and have recently picked up a glock 22. While I love the feel of the 1911....., Yes, both of these guns shoot better than me.....

Spend the time or money on training or ammo. In your own words you love the 1911, and it shoots better than you. Work with what you love, and learn to use it better. The "right" answer will come to you latter.

Martin

[HSMITH]

There are a few things I think a gun HAS to have to be suitable, they are (in order of importance): It must fit physically, the grip and mag release and all of that must be useable and it must be reasonably comfortable to shoot. The gun must have a front sight track that suits you, calling shots is very difficult with a gun that doesn't track the front sight well and can hamper improvement dramatically. The trigger must be decent, bone stock Glocks are the outer limit of what I consider to be a shootable trigger but I shoot them fine.

Beware of mods to your glock that go past sights and grip tape. The glock 9 or 40 as it comes out of the box is probably the most reliable gun you can buy, but it is also the one type of gun I see jam and puke the most at matches. Reason for that is people won't leave them alone, and reliability can be/usually is severely compromised in a glock as soon as you start tinkering with it. Parts are cheap and supposedly all you need is a punch to be a glock custom expert, I respectfully submit that you better have intimate knowledge of the gun and how it works before changing anything beyond the sights and some grip tape. You can modify them and keep them running but only as a result of a very careful balancing in your mods. Glocks are the easiest gun to customize out there, but they are also one of the most demanding in terms of balancing the modifications to retain 100% reliability.

A 1911 built right is a world easier to change things and still have a gun that runs. A 1911 that isn't built right will be a pain until it is finally fixed right.

For me a CZ-75 type gun is the ticket if I just want to shoot, fits my hand better than anything else, shoots great and all of that. That said, all of my main competition guns are 1911/2011 types. In Limited/L10 and Open the 2011 is the best tool for the job I can find. I make very slight compromises in fit to get equipment that maximizes the shootability and capabilities of the equipment while staying within the rules.

Equipment makes a HUGE difference, the problem is figuring out what works for you. The guys that tell you equipment doesn't make a difference are the ones that haven't figured out what works for them or are unwilling to change equipment for some reason IMO.

[Revopop]

Another option that I'd considered after 2 years of paying for WWB .40 ammo off the shelf in my Glock 35 for each monthly match was a swap-top 9mm/.40 Glock. Lone Wolf sells aftermarket barrels and slides. For about $300 you can add a complete G34 9mm topend, shoot it in Production, and then if you want to mod up and shoot Limited in .40 later you still have your original G22 topend. If you're thinking this is fairly permanent, you can just get the barrel and slide for about $200 and use the small parts and sights from your G22 slide.

I didn't change a thing on my G35 for the first year and a half I shot it. Then I changed the sights. The only reason I did was because the stock front sight popped off and I lost it. After I did though, I kicked myself for not having done it sooner. I immediately improved my ability to follow the front sight without such a "busy" sight picture. I never had a problem with the Glock trigger either, but I hadn't had any experience beforehand with sweeeet 1911 trigger pulls.

[DogmaDog]

Figure out what division you want to compete in, then buy the best gun you can to fit it. There are phenomenal shooters in every division, but locally, you might have stiffer competition in one division over another. The fastest way to improve (I think) is to put yourself in the most hotly contested division. Seems like limited and production are the most popular these days, but it depends on where you are.

Either of the guns you have will rock. Spend some time shooting in a division where you have to reload all the time, and hit a skinny little mag well, and then when you can afford a limited or open gun, and decide that's what you want, you'll burn things down.

Me? I started with a Kimber single stack in L10. Shot a bit of production with a CZ, just for giggles. Bought a 6" Benny Hill 2011 (used) that rocks in limited, and now shoot a Glock 35 in production, since I became a police officer, and carry a Glock on duty. I could shoot any of those guns at a match and have a good time, face a difficult challenge, and meet stiff competition...I would approach stages differently depending on which gun I were using (major vs. minor, 10 rounds vs. 19) but it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

If you think you do want a 2011 in the future, then sticking with a 1911 might help...the transition from a Glock, with its weird grip angle, to a 1911, is kinda tricky.

DD

[mjoy64]

Oh boy, where to begin. Neither gun will hold you back. There are shooters on this forum that have taken either of those guns all the way to Master or Grand Master.

You are going to get alot of varied responses, and ultimately you are right ,it is a personal decision.

I switched back and forth between GLOCKs, 1911 and 2011 platforms all last year. I do feel it slowed my progression down a little, but I really learned what my likes and dislikes were. I owned and traded 3 different 1911's including Les Baers and Wilson Combats, I owned and traded a GLOCK 34 and Vanek custom GLOCK 24. I finally purchased a Benny Hill built 2011 STI frame SVI slide bushing barrel gun that I shoot better than any of the others. The STI is now with Benny getting a bull barrel fitted so I can shoot it in both IDPA and USPSA.

For me the very different grip angles between the GLOCKS and the 1911/2011 platform is a tough transition.

My opinion on what you should do: Sell both the 1911 AND the GLOCK 22 and buy new or gently used S_I that has been built by one of the expert gunsmiths that frequent this forum. There are several. It is the firearm of our sport. There are a million other things you could do, but you asked for our opinions, and that's mine.

You buy/change/trade guns like people change their drawers. Still wish I had the extra $ lying around for the Para you got rid of.