Light & Fast or Heavy & Slow Same PF?

[ffl]

As the title says.

Lets assume same gun

What is best??

1. Light bullet (125gr) at 1000fps PF 125

or

2. Heavy Bullet (158) at 790fps PF 125

Physics say the recoil (energy) is the same.

What do you say.??

For a moving target the fast bullet is best because of less lead on the target.

For a long shot (50yds) a gun sighted in at 50yds shooting a light bullet fast has less rise at 25yds than a heavy bullet traveling slower.

This much I know. What is your 2 cents.

Thanks

david

[cliffwalsh]

I would let the shooter try both and see what they like.

I started out liking the heavy/slow combo and have moved to the light/fast.

I think most Icore guys shoot the heavy bullets, John, Dan, Mike??

[Carmoney]

My ICORE load is somewhere in the middle.......a 145-gr. RNL at 126 p.f.

[cliffwalsh]

Last year I ran a 121 @ 1100fps, like 130pf.

[pcschwenke]

I've always like the heavy/slow style. I'm using a 200 gr RN in a 38 special case running a little over 625 fps. They do not recoil very hardly at all but, the accuracy is outstanding and the momentum of the bullet carries plates down much faster.

Paul

[Waltermitty]

I'm shooting light and fast in both USPSA and ICORE. 185 gr HBRN with VV N310 under it. That's in a 45 ACP.

I went to this combination for a couple of reasons. We had a rash of 50+ yard standards showing up at Sectionals and area matches in USPSA, the 185 gr with a 165+ PF flies pretty flat and reduces hold over; and I was having a hard time getting down to ICORE power factors with the 230 grain bullets.

A coincidence is that if I set the 185 gr charge to make an ICORE load, I can just put a 230 grain bullet on top of the same load and make USPSA major. This makes it easier to be lazy during the off-season and just swap bullets for a given match.

For strictly recoil issues I prefer the heavy bullet over fast powder for slower muzzle velocities and lower felt recoil. I have toyed with the idea of carrying two loads to matches with "problem stages" and have even tried to do that at local matches, but it's pretty hard to keep the inventories straight.

[cliffwalsh]

I'm going to take a wild guess and say Bubber is into slow and heavy.

When I see Bubber, slow and heavy just pops in my head.

[Delta Mike]

I've always like the heavy/slow style. I'm using a 200 gr RN in a 38 special case running a little over 625 fps. They do not recoil very hardly at all but, the accuracy is outstanding and the momentum of the bullet carries plates down much faster.

Paul

Paul,

Where do you get your 200gr. RN from?

[Waltermitty]

I'm going to take a wild guess and say Bubber is into slow and heavy.

When I see Bubber, slow and heavy just pops in my head.

Ouchie.

[Bubber]

I'm going to take a wild guess and say Bubber is into slow and heavy.

When I see Bubber, slow and heavy just pops in my head.

I don't see why slow and heavy comes to mind. My shadow never passes me. But then again the turtles do give me a bad stare when they go by.

And I agree with Cliff on his other statement. Let the shooter decide, heavy and slow equalls a soft push, light and fast equal a snappy recoil but recovers quickly to target.

edited to add two thoughts at once. I'm pushing it here.

Edited March 27, 2008 by Bubber

[pcschwenke]

Delta Mike,

Magnus bullet company sells these and they are very accurate in my 686. The owner is Terry Labbe. He is great to deal with and very into the shooting sports. Not sure if he still shoots for Team Tasco but, he use to.

www.magnusbullets.com/

Paul

[Blueridge]

I am partial to the heavy and slow bullet, as I use 250gr LRNFP over 200gr LRNFP after trying both. I prefer the "push" of the 250gr over the "snap" of the 200gr. That's just me though, after all I use a Ruger Alaskan firing .45 Colt in USPSA and IDPA.

[HighVelocity]

I'm running a 158gr fmj @ 127pf. In my 4" 686 (heavy), it's like a 22lr.

[mda]

1. Light bullet (125gr) at 1000fps PF 125

or

2. Heavy Bullet (158) at 790fps PF 125

Physics say the recoil (energy) is the same.

What do you say.??

Well, Physics does say the recoil energy will not be the same. The Free Recoil Energy will be less with the heavy slower bullet. Power factor is not a calculation of energy, but of momentum. Energy = 1/2 mass x velocity squared. So for the same mass, as the velocity doubles the energy increases four times.

There is a web site http://handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp where you can calculate the Free Recoil Energy of different loads and bullet weights using the same weight gun.

[Tom E]

Well, Physics does say the recoil energy will not be the same. The Free Recoil Energy will be less with the heavy slower bullet. Power factor is not a calculation of energy, but of momentum. Energy = 1/2 mass x velocity squared. So for the same mass, as the velocity doubles the energy increases four times.

There is a web site http://handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp where you can calculate the Free Recoil Energy of different loads and bullet weights using the same weight gun.

Did you try using the calculater in the link you supplied? 2 different bullets weights, same power factor, same powder charge weight, same gun weight, SAME RECOIL.

Recoil is a function of bullet momentum, modified slightly by the weight of the powder charge.

Edited March 28, 2008 by Tom E

[sargenv]

Another part of the question is whether the shooter is shooting in a limited or open gun. In an open gun I'd vote light and fast and get as much gas as possible so slower powder to cause more stabilizing.. Limited gun I'd vote Slow and heavy. I've been working on some differnt loads and have found that the slow and heavy ones in a 5" 627 are better than light and fast.. with similar powder weights. I was comparing 158 bear creeks and heavier jacketed bullets.

[DougCarden]

Fast powder/heavy bullet combo for small statured shooter or junior until they or parents "think" that the other loads might help them as they are doing really well. Once they just focus on the shooting you can put either load in the gun on them and they wont care or notice if they are just paying attention to the shooting......

[mda]

Well, Physics does say the recoil energy will not be the same. The Free Recoil Energy will be less with the heavy slower bullet. Power factor is not a calculation of energy, but of momentum. Energy = 1/2 mass x velocity squared. So for the same mass, as the velocity doubles the energy increases four times.

There is a web site http://handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp where you can calculate the Free Recoil Energy of different loads and bullet weights using the same weight gun.

Did you try using the calculater in the link you supplied? 2 different bullets weights, same power factor, same powder charge weight, same gun weight, SAME RECOIL.

Recoil is a function of bullet momentum, modified slightly by the weight of the powder charge.

Yes I did. You can not use the same powder and charge weight for both bullets and get the same power factor. Check out a loading data books and see. To acheieve the same power factor you will need more powder with the lighter bullet, this will give more recoil energy. Yes, the bullet momentum will be equal to the recoil momentum, But the Kinetic Energy will not be.

[Tom E]

You can not use the same powder and charge weight for both bullets and get the same power factor. Check out a loading data books and see. To acheieve the same power factor you will need more powder with the lighter bullet, this will give more recoil energy. Yes, the bullet momentum will be equal to the recoil momentum, But the Kinetic Energy will not be.

What does kinetic energy have to do with this? The formula doesn't deal with powder type so you could have different powders and use the same charge weight. For a comparison I eliminated variables. The recoil impulse curve will match the bullet acceleration curve. The same muzzle velocity with different powders will have different felt recoil. Felt recoil is so subjective that this whole discussion is (unfortunately) much like pissing in the wind.

[David Sinko]

Hey Blueridge, when I fist started shooting the IDPA matches years ago I used a 255 gr. RNFP with 8.8 grs. of 231 in my .45 Colt Redhawk. The gun was a re-bore, as Ruger had not yet offered the Redhawk in .45 Colt. So here I am shooting 240 PF with HKS speedloaders and I was doing well enough that some shooters were reminding me that my gun is illegal. I never had that problem in USPSA though, as everybody was too busy feeling sorry for me. A good load for the .45 Colt is a 255 gr. plated bullet with the max listed charge of Clays. It handily exceeds 165 PF and has very little recoil. It's just too bad you can't get Comp III speedloaders for the .45 Colt. I really enjoyed shooting that gun but it's not at all competitive in USPSA, which is where I'll be spending all my time and effort from now on.

Dave Sinko

[Carmoney]

In an open gun I'd vote light and fast and get as much gas as possible so slower powder to cause more stabilizing.

When it comes to ICORE/Bianchi/minor loads, I don't think any type of compensator is going to do much at all. I have the solid thread protector on my V-Comp Open revolver just so I don't have to mess around cleaning lead residue out of the silly comp thing.

[MichiganShootist]

This topic comes up on the forum about every 4 months.

I took a class from a pretty decent shooter named Robbie about 5 years ago. I asked him this question (fast and light vs. slow and heavy).......because I had several friends go to 185 grain bullets in their 1911s at that time. He said if he could find a 45 caliber bullet that weighed 400 grains he'd shoot them in SS in a minute... but in a compensated gun... he'd go the other way. Higher speed lighter bullet to run the comp.

Obviously he knows some things about 1911s... but I think his advice is dead on for wheelguns too.

[warpspeed]

I tried both combos in my K-frame and like the Heavy & Slow best.

Edited March 28, 2008 by warpspeed

[Swingpress]

I believe recoil is both a function of bullet acceleration, which would be the same at same power factor, plus the acceleration of the ejecta. The ejecta is said to have more mass with higher charges (light bullets). How much more, I'm not sure. What if a particular powder causes there to be more gas in the ejecta due to more thorough combustion? I'm not sure if that's possible or not. I've heard it said that slower powders and faster bullets recoil more because the pressure differential between the barrel and the atmosphere is greater at the time of release.

Additionally, heavier bullets in a particular caliber (higher BC) should loose less energy to wind drag on their way to poppers and knock them down with slightly more authority.

I agree about the advantage of trajectory at longer distances going to the light fast bullet (within the distance it takes the higher BC bullet to outrun the lower one) and think it to be an advantage worth considering.

[Blueridge]

Hey Blueridge, when I fist started shooting the IDPA matches years ago I used a 255 gr. RNFP with 8.8 grs. of 231 in my .45 Colt Redhawk. The gun was a re-bore, as Ruger had not yet offered the Redhawk in .45 Colt. So here I am shooting 240 PF with HKS speedloaders and I was doing well enough that some shooters were reminding me that my gun is illegal. I never had that problem in USPSA though, as everybody was too busy feeling sorry for me. A good load for the .45 Colt is a 255 gr. plated bullet with the max listed charge of Clays. It handily exceeds 165 PF and has very little recoil. It's just too bad you can't get Comp III speedloaders for the .45 Colt. I really enjoyed shooting that gun but it's not at all competitive in USPSA, which is where I'll be spending all my time and effort from now on.

Dave Sinko

It is a shame that there are no Comp III speedloaders for .45 Colt. Given the options available my Ruger Alaskan is not "competitive", but I am happy as long as I am coming in ahead of some of the auto shooters.

I use Tightgroup under a 250gr LRNFP that puts me at 185PF, and I am okay until I have to run one of those 30+ round field courses. The cylinder gets so hot that I have to make quick reloads before it hurts too much.

Edited April 6, 2008 by Blueridge