Unsafe Gun Handling?

[David Sinko]

I originally asked this in the "Screw ups" section but now realize I need to ask it here too...

At my last match I was using my new 3" 625. On my very first reload I was caught offguard by the feel of the short barrel and ejector rod and as I transferred the gun from right to left hand I opened the cylinder and then missed the ejector rod with my thumb. This caused the gun to rotate out of my hand but then I immediately pressed it against my chest with my forearm to prevent it from falling. I then finished the reload and the stage.

What I wanted to know originally is whether or not this should've been a DQ. I did lose control of the gun for a fraction of a second. One point of contention is whether or not it needs to hit the ground to be a DQ.

Some opine that it would be a DQ if I had pointed the muzzle at myself. Then I got to thinking that I probably routinely stare down the muzzle of the gun when doing the conventional reload. I point the muzzle at the sky to eject the empty cases and naturally this is done closest to my body where I have most leverage and control. As a result, I expect that I am looking down the muzzle on a regular basis.

Any thoughts on these points?

Dave Sinko

[itchy]

I'm no revolver expert, nor am I a rules expert, but if the cylinder is open, isn't it kinda hard to have an accidental discharge, even if you lost control? (Not that this should be compared directly to having the slide locked back on an auto. ) My vote would be: no DQ. (I guess I'm a "run-on" sentence expert, though.)

Seiichi

[Tom E]

I originally asked this in the "Screw ups" section but now realize I need to ask it here too...

At my last match I was using my new 3" 625. On my very first reload I was caught offguard by the feel of the short barrel and ejector rod and as I transferred the gun from right to left hand I opened the cylinder and then missed the ejector rod with my thumb. This caused the gun to rotate out of my hand but then I immediately pressed it against my chest with my forearm to prevent it from falling. I then finished the reload and the stage.

What I wanted to know originally is whether or not this should've been a DQ. I did lose control of the gun for a fraction of a second. One point of contention is whether or not it needs to hit the ground to be a DQ.

Some opine that it would be a DQ if I had pointed the muzzle at myself. Then I got to thinking that I probably routinely stare down the muzzle of the gun when doing the conventional reload. I point the muzzle at the sky to eject the empty cases and naturally this is done closest to my body where I have most leverage and control. As a result, I expect that I am looking down the muzzle on a regular basis.

Any thoughts on these points?

Dave Sinko

Break the "180" with the muzzle, you get a DQ. Sweep yourself, allow the muzzle to point at any part of your body during a couse of fire, you get a DQ. Look down the barrel during a course of fire and you get a DQ and have to wear a dunce cap at your next match.

[spook]

Breaking the 180 is against the rules and results in a DQ.

Breaking the 180 with an open cylinder is not dangerous, but IPSC/USPSA drew the line at 180 for all guns.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Read 10.5.2 and 10.5.5 Sounds like one of them will address the situation.

Edited March 27, 2008 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[David Sinko]

I did not break the 180. The muzzle was pointed straight up, which I believe is not the same. The more urgent matter in regard to where the muzzle was pointing seems to be looking down the bore while doing a conventional switch-hands reload. How do you NOT risk looking down the bore when doing this kind of reload? Do those of you who replied all do the weak hand reload?

This is suddenly becoming very confusing. I have been doing the conventional reload at matches for years and have never been told that my method is unsafe.

As for dropping the gun, I could live with the DQ and move on, since I do not drop guns as a matter of routine. I DO, however, point the muzzle up and in the general direction of my face as a matter of routine while doing a reload. I think all of us who do the conventional reload come very close to looking down the muzzle. Am I right or wrong?

Dave Sinko

[Carmoney]

At Area 5 a couple years ago, a revolver shooter on another squad was DQ'd for this type of scenario. The RO (who happened to be a very experienced Nationals-level NROI trainer-type RO) indicated that the shooter had in fact broken the vertical 180 during the reload. This occurred just as my squad was arriving on the stage. I was watching, but the shooter was moving forward at the time, and his body was blocking my view. However, I do not question the RO's call.

At Summer Blast a few years ago, a revolver shooter on my squad was DQ'd for breaking the horizontal 180 while moving almost straight to the left across the bay. I wasn't looking at the shooter at the moment the infraction occurred, but I did catch the wincing reaction of several other spectators who were behind the line and would have had a good view.

Both of these shooters use the traditional FBI-style "switch hands and punch the rod with the thumb" reload. I have thought about this issue a lot, and I do believe this is one really good reason to consider moving to the other style of reload, where the gun remains firmly in the strong hand, and the weak hand grabs the spare moonclip/speedloader and puts it in the gun. Think about it--to do a switch-hands reload, you have to flop the gun over to the other hand, hold on to it with less than a fully secure grip (because your thumb is busy doing something else), then flop it back to the shooting hand and try to quickly regain a firing grip. While this is going on, you might be running at full speed. While the gun is in the weak hand, it is not held in the normal shooting orientation, so it is much easier to lose track of where the muzzle is pointing as you're traversing around the stage. Although it is not really necessary to do the full "muzzle-straight up while you dump, and muzzle straight down while you load" routine, that is how the technique was traditionally taught.

I used to switch hands--I did it that way for 15+ years, in fact. When Sam started shooting with me, I taught him to do a switch hands reload, because that's how I did it. But then I decided switching hands ultimately didn't make sense, when a very fast reload could be done with the off-hand and the gun could remain firmly in the strong hand, with a full shooting grip on the handle of the gun. So we changed over. My reload speed improved dramatically, Sam's did too, and I have no worries about either of us being DQ'd because things got a little too crazy during a reload.

I'm not saying everybody should make this change. It's a personal preference, and there are plenty of great shooters on both sides of the aisle. But I am convinced that keeping the gun in the strong hand virtually eliminates the possibility of losing control over the gun during a reload, makes full muzzle-awareness a much more natural thing, and it's every bit as fast.

Just something to think about.

[pskys2]

Mike you make a lot of valid points, but have you ever "swept" your hand by overshooting the ejector rod?

Now that it's coming up on a couple of months since even touching my Revo, I may switch to your fav method.

I DQ'd a guy with a Revo back maaaany years ago for breaking 180 overhead, and I almost did it at last years Iowa Sectional performing my fantastic rendetion of the RutherFORD Van Pirouette move. But my superb balance on tip toes kept me from the 180. I think there's a pix floating around somewhere of it even.

You don't actually need to go 180 vertical to get the empties out, nor to get the clips in.

Just because an Auto's empty at Slide Lock, the 180 still applies. So why not for a Revo with a cylinder out?

It's always in the back of my mind when scoping out a course.

[Gregg K]

I think all of us who do the conventional reload come very close to looking down the muzzle. Am I right or wrong?

Dave Sinko

If you are not breaking the 180 and you are getting the muzzle looking at your face you must really be bent over the top of the pistol when reloading. When I do a switch hands reload I only go about 70 degrees and keep the gun out in front and don't bend over so it has never been an issue for me. I find that with the 625 with moons and .45 ACP it really doesn't take much to get the empties to fly out of there and a full 90 degree tilt has not been necessary.

[David Sinko]

A lot of good points are made here, but I feel that anybody doing a weak hand reload will also tilt the gun up enough that the muzzle will still clear the berm. The gun might not be "straight up" or "breaking the vertical 180" but a stray shot would still pose a hazard. I can not believe that any one style is more dangerous than the other, but if one is perceived to be then we have a real problem.

I have always felt that switching hands was more comfortable and faster while reloading on the run. I did try the weak hand reload during the very brief time I used my 66 and Comp III loaders. I was able to pop the cylinder with my trigger finger and grab the loader just like I grab a magazine, but that did not work with my dainty fingers and an N Frame. Now that I am reconsidering grips with open backstraps on the N Frame I will take another look at the weak hand reload. I do resent the idea of having to change my style because somebody who may not even shoot a revolver could think that something that others and I have done for years is unsafe.

Dave Sinko

[41mag]

I think all of us who do the conventional reload come very close to looking down the muzzle. Am I right or wrong?

Dave Sinko

If you are not breaking the 180 and you are getting the muzzle looking at your face you must really be bent over the top of the pistol when reloading. When I do a switch hands reload I only go about 70 degrees and keep the gun out in front and don't bend over so it has never been an issue for me. I find that with the 625 with moons and .45 ACP it really doesn't take much to get the empties to fly out of there and a full 90 degree tilt has not been necessary.

+1 to Gregg's post.

I reload both ways in practice and can pull off about the same speed reloads both ways. I use the weak hand reload in matches for all the same reasons Mike mentioned and a couple more that are more on a personal note, like....I can reload while running at speed with out looking at the gun when there is a large distance to cover, and the crash factor is less. I have mostly stayed with weak hand because of muzzle control.

Like the others have said here there is no need to bring the gun vertical to dump the empties. My gun moves from horizontal (pointed down range) to being pointed about a foot or two in front of my feet while I am ejecting the empties. It is closer to horizontal then vertical when the empties bail out. I do stroke the ejector rod briskly.

I think its a good idea to learn both methods and use the one you like best. I think there is potential for the strong hand reload to be a bit faster and when I perfect it to that degree I will use it for standing reloads where muzzle control won't be an issue.

There's a thread here not very far down about reloads and I posted a video there that shows my weak hand reload.

Warning....when first learning alternate reload methods I would have some trouble in matches of the two styles running together!

41mag

[Carmoney]

Mike you make a lot of valid points, but have you ever "swept" your hand by overshooting the ejector rod?

Naw, not even close. I keep the gun in my right hand, bring up the left hand to pop open the cylinder, then drag the rod back with my left hand/fingers as I begin the motion of going to the belt for the spare moon. My left hand never goes out anywhere near the end of the barrel, and the barrel is essentially pointed downrange until the empty moon is out, and the spare moon is in my hand ready to put in the cylinder.

[71Commander]

I do believe this is one really good reason to consider moving to the other style of reload, where the gun remains firmly in the strong hand, and the weak hand grabs the spare moonclip/speedloader and puts it in the gun.

Whre is the ejection of the spent moonclip in thes process? Before you grab the reload, or after?

[pskys2]

The single slowest thing to do in a COF is to "Think"!

The mind is a terrible thing to waste at Speed.

As for pointing over a berm, most Auto's even do it on reloads. And unless it's a range like the World Shoot in the Phillipines, it's not an issue. Why in the world would you put even a shanty on the hillside overlooking the berm on a shooting range?

[Carmoney]

A lot of good points are made here, but I feel that anybody doing a weak hand reload will also tilt the gun up enough that the muzzle will still clear the berm.

Not really. I bend my arms in somewhat to bring the gun in closer to the trunk while the left hand reaches up to open the cylinder and the pop out the moon. At this point, the muzzle is still pointing downrange, not up. I can snap out the empty with enough force this way that the muzzle does not need to be pointed up. I'm not relying on just my thumb to eject the moon. After the moon is out, the muzzle swings down as I bring the gun down to belt level so I can stick in the new moonclip.

Under the rules, if the muzzle points over the berm, that's no problem as long as the thing doesn't go off. But there's really no reason for the muzzle to tilt up, at least not much, the way I'm doing it.

[41mag]

A lot of good points are made here, but I feel that anybody doing a weak hand reload will also tilt the gun up enough that the muzzle will still clear the berm. The gun might not be "straight up" or "breaking the vertical 180" but a stray shot would still pose a hazard. I can not believe that any one style is more dangerous than the other, but if one is perceived to be then we have a real problem.

I have always felt that switching hands was more comfortable and faster while reloading on the run. I did try the weak hand reload during the very brief time I used my 66 and Comp III loaders. I was able to pop the cylinder with my trigger finger and grab the loader just like I grab a magazine, but that did not work with my dainty fingers and an N Frame. Now that I am reconsidering grips with open backstraps on the N Frame I will take another look at the weak hand reload. I do resent the idea of having to change my style because somebody who may not even shoot a revolver could think that something that others and I have done for years is unsafe.

Dave Sinko

I went and watched my own video to look for this and your right in my case. I can see the muzzle rise up as my left hand unlocks the cylinder and goes for the ejector. But this is no where near as high as must auto loaders I have watched reload.

I will have to make a new video as I have changed my style a little bit since this video was shot. I now open the cylinder with my strong hand.

Hard to see in the video that I am hitting the release with my weak hand, but I am.

http://www.mydeo.com/videorequest.asp?XID=...&CID=170878

41mag

Edited March 27, 2008 by 41mag

[71Commander]

A lot of good points are made here, but I feel that anybody doing a weak hand reload will also tilt the gun up enough that the muzzle will still clear the berm. The gun might not be "straight up" or "breaking the vertical 180" but a stray shot would still pose a hazard. I can not believe that any one style is more dangerous than the other, but if one is perceived to be then we have a real problem.

I have always felt that switching hands was more comfortable and faster while reloading on the run. I did try the weak hand reload during the very brief time I used my 66 and Comp III loaders. I was able to pop the cylinder with my trigger finger and grab the loader just like I grab a magazine, but that did not work with my dainty fingers and an N Frame. Now that I am reconsidering grips with open backstraps on the N Frame I will take another look at the weak hand reload. I do resent the idea of having to change my style because somebody who may not even shoot a revolver could think that something that others and I have done for years is unsafe.

Dave Sinko

I went and watched my own video to look for this and your right in my case. I can see the muzzle rise up as my left hand unlocks the cylinder and goes for the ejector. But this is no where near as high as must auto loaders I have watched reload.

I will have to make a new video as I have changed my style a little bit since this video was shot. I now open the cylinder with my strong hand.

Hard to see in the video that I am hitting the release with my weak hand, but I am.

http://www.mydeo.com/videorequest.asp?XID=...&CID=170878

41mag

I got a "video removed by owner" message.

[David Sinko]

OK, I have examined my style and realize that I have been wrong on a couple of points.

I am NOT looking down the muzzle when I do my conventional reload, although from the wrong angle it might appear that I am. I could see where having to do a reload too close to a doorway might force the gun up more vertical toward my face, so that could be an issue. But I still think I tend to hold the gun a bit more vertical than most shooters.

All of this may be a moot point now since I have decided to switch to the weak hand reload. I am fortunate enough to own three 625s and they all have very different barrel configurations and grips. They all balance and feel different when changing hands so I have come to the conclusion that the only way to reload these consistently and SAFELY is to not break the grip and switch hands. It is that simple.

From a street point of view it makes more sense too. It's much easier to hide the spare moonclip behind a cell phone case on the left side. And it is much easier to maniuplate both a flashlight and the reload without breaking the grip. So I have learned something.

I suppose the issue of the "vertical 180" is really to protect us from shooting ourselves. I have no qualms about looking down the barrel of my own empty revolver but obviously it makes people nervous for good reason and it must be enforced. It looks like my near disaster of almost dropping a new gun has taught me a valuable lesson. I would not want to go to a major match, get DQed for a questionable reload and then get angry and not shoot revolver anymore. So thanks for all the input.

Dave Sinko

[41mag]

A lot of good points are made here, but I feel that anybody doing a weak hand reload will also tilt the gun up enough that the muzzle will still clear the berm. The gun might not be "straight up" or "breaking the vertical 180" but a stray shot would still pose a hazard. I can not believe that any one style is more dangerous than the other, but if one is perceived to be then we have a real problem.

I have always felt that switching hands was more comfortable and faster while reloading on the run. I did try the weak hand reload during the very brief time I used my 66 and Comp III loaders. I was able to pop the cylinder with my trigger finger and grab the loader just like I grab a magazine, but that did not work with my dainty fingers and an N Frame. Now that I am reconsidering grips with open backstraps on the N Frame I will take another look at the weak hand reload. I do resent the idea of having to change my style because somebody who may not even shoot a revolver could think that something that others and I have done for years is unsafe.

Dave Sinko

I went and watched my own video to look for this and your right in my case. I can see the muzzle rise up as my left hand unlocks the cylinder and goes for the ejector. But this is no where near as high as must auto loaders I have watched reload.

I will have to make a new video as I have changed my style a little bit since this video was shot. I now open the cylinder with my strong hand.

Hard to see in the video that I am hitting the release with my weak hand, but I am.

http://www.mydeo.com/videorequest.asp?XID=...&CID=170878

41mag

I got a "video removed by owner" message.

Sorry about that...I don't know much about these things. I tried to copy the link from the other thread and maybe that don't work.

I just edited the above post and pasted the link directly from the web site. It worked for me.... Give it a try

41mag

[Carmoney]

Here you go: reloads

[bountyhunter]

Then I got to thinking that I probably routinely stare down the muzzle of the gun when doing the conventional reload. I point the muzzle at the sky to eject the empty cases and naturally this is done closest to my body where I have most leverage and control. As a result, I expect that I am looking down the muzzle on a regular basis.

Any thoughts on these points?

Dave Sinko

You need to really not do that. Never rotate the muzzle anywhere near you while you are reloading. At speed, you will be forcing the cylinder release with the right thumb with your hand gripping the gun.... and it would be very easy to accidentally pull the trigger as a reaction force to the pushing of the cylinder release.

I know what you mean, it is convenient to point it straight up during the reload. Just keep it out away from you and make sure the muzzle is pointed slightly away from your head.

[dgsmith]

At the end of last year a shooter with a 4" barrel doing one hand reload put his hand on the muzzle instead of the ejector rod. The ro had him look at the palm of his hand where a nice carbon ring was proof of his missstep.

[Ron Ankeny]

This caused the gun to rotate out of my hand but then I immediately pressed it against my chest with my forearm to prevent it from falling.

I don't think the type of reload is really the issue. Fumbling the gun and trapping it against your body is the issue. From a common sense perspective, is the action described "unsafe" gun handling? Keep in mind:

10.5 clearly states, "Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:"

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

This caused the gun to rotate out of my hand but then I immediately pressed it against my chest with my forearm to prevent it from falling. I then finished the reload and the stage.

Any thoughts on these points?

Dave Sinko

Agreeing totally with Ron, my reason for posting the two rules I did was this statement you made. It had nothing to do with your reload it had to do with you loosing control of the firearm. Now I was not there, but if when you had that revolver pressed against your chest the muzzle was pointing at a body part or it had broken the 180, it would be time to become the taper for the squad. I am NROI certified and would interpret that you earned yourself a DQ with the action.

This has nothing to do with your choice of reload technique, it has to do with the loss of control. Pressing a 3" barrel revolver against your chest without breaking 180 and without pointing the muzzle at an arm, chin, hand or leg would be a feat I would like to see

Edited March 29, 2008 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[Carmoney]

At the end of last year a shooter with a 4" barrel doing one hand reload put his hand on the muzzle instead of the ejector rod. The ro had him look at the palm of his hand where a nice carbon ring was proof of his missstep.

Wow, that's pretty crazy stuff--must have been somebody just starting out in Revolver? Done correctly, reloading the gun while keeping it firmly in the strong hand should virtually eliminate all possibility of sweeping, 180 violations, or fumbling the gun. Don't know if anybody watched the reloads in the video I posted above--they may not be the speediest reloads ever, but the technique is super-safe.