31+1 Reloadable mags.... I just got Mine!

[Sharyn]

There's no reason it shouldn't be Limited legal. I'll verify the details and get back to you.

[SLM]

For all the naysayers... here it is in action! ---> 31+1

We also trialed 21+1 Limited .40 mags without problems. We even tried 22+1 successfully but will only guarantee 21+1.

And, I'm guessing not many of you shot Manny Bragg's stage at Florida State '07... a 32 round mag would have won that stage outright, IMO.

Slow down that finger. I can't count that fast, LOL!!

I asked before...Limited legal????

APPENDIX D2 — Limited Division

Special conditions:

— Any complete handgun or components with a minimum production of 500

units by a factory and available to the general public.

Does tuning fall under production? The parts (components) are all available... Just asking 'cause I have NO idea.

[scirocco38s]

I asked before...Limited legal????

APPENDIX D2 — Limited Division

Special conditions:

— Any complete handgun or components with a minimum production of 500

units by a factory and available to the general public.

Flex, I believe it would be considered legal as the mags before tuning have been produced in great numbers. If we consider these mag tuners as mfg's then it might be a different situation. I would let it ride as I dont think it is that big an advantage. If the match has some real challenge in it there will be enough spacing in the target arrays to get in a reload without a penalty, but if it is a hoser match then it might be a problem then, especially if it is a 22/23 round stage. Then these mags will have a real application that we cant ignore.

[JThompson]

For all the naysayers... here it is in action! ---> 31+1

We also trialed 21+1 Limited .40 mags without problems. We even tried 22+1 successfully but will only guarantee 21+1.

And, I'm guessing not many of you shot Manny Bragg's stage at Florida State '07... a 32 round mag would have won that stage outright, IMO.

Slow down that finger. I can't count that fast, LOL!!

I asked before...Limited legal????

APPENDIX D2 — Limited Division

Special conditions:

— Any complete handgun or components with a minimum production of 500

units by a factory and available to the general public.

Does tuning fall under production? The parts (components) are all available... Just asking 'cause I have NO idea.

IF it didn't then a ton of mags out there would not comply... almost everyone has mags tuned to one degree or another. I don't think you can put the genie back in the bottle. The only way to stop it would be to make a limit on the number of rounds. The logistics in checking mags for "illegal tuning" would be impossible. The only way to handle it, imo would be to say X number of rounds and no more.

Do I think they should try and regulate it? I'm not sure...

Edited March 31, 2008 by JThompson

[Flexmoney]

I'm not questioning the tuning. Maybe I don't know enough about these. What is new/different? Doesn't it have a new base pad?

[JThompson]

I'm not questioning the tuning. Maybe I don't know enough about these. What is new/different? Doesn't it have a new base pad?

I think he uses custom Springs, followers and basepads. I also think he would have to change the taper at the end of the mag (make it less) but that's just a guess.

[Sharyn]

I'm not questioning the tuning. Maybe I don't know enough about these. What is new/different? Doesn't it have a new base pad?

I think he uses custom Springs, followers and basepads. I also think he would have to change the taper at the end of the mag (make it less) but that's just a guess.

Just to clarify who "he" is... ours are tuned by Derek Janowicz - Millennium Custom.

Flex, they are Limited legal, assembled with readily available (to the general public) components. He uses the Bolen basepad and follower.

[AWLAZS]

Do they mod the tube or it just the parts that get you the extra rounds?

[Flexmoney]

He uses the Bolen basepad and follower.

I guess that is what I am wondering about. I hadn't heard of Bolen base pads until a month or so ago. Are those something new? Have they produced 500 units (which is how the rule reads) ? Open doesn't have to 500 requirement, but Limited does. Have they made 500 of the Limited (specific) base pads?

If I were shooting one, I'd want to know the answer to that for sure. I wouldn't want to be having this same conversation with the Range Master and not have a definitive answer.

[XRe]

The basepad has no magic involved, in terms of gaining extra capacity. However, its aluminum and likely to be very sturdy (much like Dawson pads). The follower is rather short, and has a unique angle to it (that is, its different from a Dawson, Grams, Arredondo, STI or SV follower). I didn't spend a lot of time looking the part over. There may be some magic in the follower, but it didn't jump out as being extra-super-special in terms of suddenly accounting for two rounds of capacity. They're currently using a Wolff mag spring, straight off the shelf, but are apparently working on getting custom springs made for their tuning application.

Its clear after talking about it with Glenn that the majority of the added capacity comes from reshaping the interior of the tube, which requires appropriate jigs and a BFH, plus a lot of elbow grease.

[JThompson]

The basepad has no magic involved, in terms of gaining extra capacity. However, its aluminum and likely to be very sturdy (much like Dawson pads). The follower is rather short, and has a unique angle to it (that is, its different from a Dawson, Grams, Arredondo, STI or SV follower). I didn't spend a lot of time looking the part over. There may be some magic in the follower, but it didn't jump out as being extra-super-special in terms of suddenly accounting for two rounds of capacity. They're currently using a Wolff mag spring, straight off the shelf, but are apparently working on getting custom springs made for their tuning application.

Its clear after talking about it with Glenn that the majority of the added capacity comes from reshaping the interior of the tube, which requires appropriate jigs and a BFH, plus a lot of elbow grease.

Thanks Dave. I didn't think there was a lot left to gain in the rest of the system... The mag tube had to be where most of the gain came from.

[XRe]

I should mention that what all that means is that John appears to know what he's doing, and studied the tubes well enough to learn how to optimize them, and to be able to do it in a more production-like fashion. Its his skill as a tuner, not as a parts engineer, that makes the difference (seems like I said that I figured that was the case earlier in the thread). If my previous post didn't imply that, hopefully this clears it up - just because you haven't heard of John Bolen before doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's doing - and I expect that this will probably cause a ripple effect and soon you'll see most of the mag tuners offering up 30 or 31 round magazines, just because. Obviously, you don't need one, but there are situations where the option can make a difference (for instance, stage 5 w/ the dummy at the DoubleTap match this year).

Glenn's mags seemed to work just fine in the match - obviously, one match is not an exhaustive test. They would also appear to gauge perfectly, as well. I watched him run at least two 32 round stages with no reloads.

Edited March 31, 2008 by XRe

[SmittyFL]

If I were shooting one, I'd want to know the answer to that for sure. I wouldn't want to be having this same conversation with the Range Master and not have a definitive answer.

While I'd never knowingly shoot illegal equipment, in 10 years of USPSA shooting I've yet to have a mag gauged, gun weighed, manufacture contacted, trigger checked, or any of the other things that are in the rule book (I don't know them all).

I don't know how many bases they have made or if it matters but I know Derek's mags fit the gauge and know they run at least once.

Edited March 31, 2008 by SmittyFL

[Brazos Custom]

I asked before...Limited legal????

APPENDIX D2 — Limited Division

Special conditions:

— Any complete handgun or components with a minimum production of 500

units by a factory and available to the general public.

I believe the special conditions you quote applies to handguns not parts.

Read #19

Handgun specifically approved for Division Yes - see special conditions

[XRe]

I believe the special conditions you quote applies to handguns not parts.

I was thinking the same thing - the reference to 500 guns or parts is referring to a gun built out of parts that may not appear on a factory produced gun as some sort of stock offering. I've never seen that rule used to refer to magazine basepads, or for that matter, other mag parts, mag catch buttons, sights, mag wells, etc....

[Flexmoney]

I worked 7 majors last year. As I recall, a mag gauge was in used at each one of them.

I'm not trying to win an argument or raining doom on anybody. I'm just pointing out the wording in the rule book and asking if the stuff meets the requirement. Wouldn't we all rather know here and now...instead of having the Range master ask...?

I feel like people are starting to get upset that I'm asking. I was trying to get this cleared up here...where it doesn't cost anybody anything.

[Flexmoney]

I believe the special conditions you quote applies to handguns not parts.

Maybe so.

My read on it is a division requirement, not a gun requirement.

If they've made 500 units for their Limited mags...then none of this matters.

[Sharyn]

OK, to clarify what I can too... I just got off the phone with Derek.

9mm 31+1s - He hasn't made them yet, but doesn't see a problem getting them to run reliably. Shannon is shooting my gun in the video which is .38 SC.

tubes - They are SPS tubes. He's been able to get 30+1 from SV tubes. Bolen basepads and followers, Wolff springs. He mods the tubes.

If they've made 500 units for their Limited mags...then none of this matters.

Not exactly.

As for the "500 produced" rule, he has even had this clarified with John Amidon. It is in relation to guns/gun components. The example he used to explain this was that he and Mike Calloway of Schuemann barrels were trying to build a 6in Sight Tracker Limited gun. There have been 500 of the 6in Sight Tracker barrels produced, however, there have not been 500 complete guns built therefore it would not be Limited legal.

I think your question is one that may have to be addressed by John Amidon himself. It seems as though individual interpretation of the rule is causing the confusion. I'll see if I can get it clarified.

NONE of these are IPSC legal. USPSA only.

Hopefully that clarifies some... ?

Edited March 31, 2008 by Sharyn

[SmittyFL]

I worked 7 majors last year. As I recall, a mag gauge was in used at each one of them.

What the hell matches were those?

I'm not jumping on you in the least. You definitely know the rules better than I do. But I am surprised a mag gauge was used at a match. I wasn't exaggerating when I said I'd never seen it happen in 10 years including a bunch of Nationals. Glad to hear they are checking stuff somewhere. A rule isn't of much use if it isn't enforced.

Edited March 31, 2008 by SmittyFL

[geezer-lock]

Now, not having to do a reload on a 28 round field course is an advantage, for certain...

And that goes double if you are reloading inside a cave!

David C

[Flexmoney]

I worked 7 majors last year. As I recall, a mag gauge was in used at each one of them.

What the hell matches were those?

I'm not jumping on you in the least. You definitely know the rules better than I do. But I am surprised a mag gauge was used at a match. I wasn't exaggerating when I said I'd never seen it happen in 10 years including a bunch of Nationals. Glad to hear they are checking stuff somewhere. A rule isn't of much use if it isn't enforced.

I think you guys were on the stage when I switched to Open at the Michigan match. Before I started, the CRO gauged the mags I was getting ready to use. Same guy was our Range Master at the Ohio match...with his gauge (along with others). As Match Director at the Ohio, on stages were a shooter might prove to be over capacity/length, I instructed those CRO's to be ready to check mags. I know that shooters were bumped (out of open) at the Area 8 and the Summer Blast. Mag gauge was present at the Area 5 (don't recall if it was used). All of those were the Level III's I worked.

We are seeing the gauges now, I think, because they are a easy and useful tool. And, they are becoming readily available.

[SmittyFL]

Wow. I didn't notice at the MI match.

What is the rule if you are mid way through the match and your Open mag doesn't gauge? Shoot for no score or quit using the mag? I guess Limited you would be bumped to Open.

[Flexmoney]

As for the "500 produced" rule, he has even had this clarified with John Amidon. It is in relation to guns/gun components. The example he used to explain this was that he and Mike Calloway of Schuemann barrels were trying to build a 6in Sight Tracker Limited gun. There have been 500 of the 6in Sight Tracker barrels produced, however, there have not been 500 complete guns built therefore is would not be Limited legal.

Many here have been at odds with Amidon's take on "or components". In the above, I'd say those 6in sight trackers are legal...

There was enough of an issue with the 5in version that I believe they came out with a specific ruling on those.

----------------------

Anyway...I've seemed to have drifted this thread off into a rules discussion. Not my intent. I just wanted to put a heads=up out there so nobody got blind-sided.

[Flexmoney]

Wow. I didn't notice at the MI match.

What is the rule if you are mid way through the match and your Open mag doesn't gauge? Shoot for no score or quit using the mag? I guess Limited you would be bumped to Open.

Shoot for no-score if your Open mag fails. Bumped to Open if your Limited (or Production, Revolver, L-10) equipment doesn't meet the division requirements...if I recall correctly. (That is why I went from Production to Open in MI. My spare part wasn't Production legal.)

[JMD]

What is the rule if you are mid way through the match and your Open mag doesn't gauge? Shoot for no score or quit using the mag? I guess Limited you would be bumped to Open.

Correct, no score. A good plan is to seek official measurement (at the chrono) before the match begins. Have an initialed receipt or sticker affixed to bottom of pad.

As mentioned, have the correct base pad fit if you plan to use these in Bali.

Joel