SMK vs Hornady...weird results

[steel1212]

69SMK 25.5 varget mag length

68 Hornady MHP 25.5 varget mag length.

Ok looking at these 2 targets my gun likes the 69 SMK nothing weird about that.

77SMK 24.5 grains of varget mag length...WTF? 2" group from THE matchking?

75 Hornady MHP 24.5 grains of varget mag lenght. Now all of a sudden it likes Hornadys?

Rifle is one I built that I just recently changed the barrel from a armalite 1/8 20" stainless to a sabre defense 20" 1/8 stainless. My armalite barrel would run any 4 of these loads so close that it didn't matter so I shot hornadys. I got the new barrel and wanted to test it again and got these results. I could understand if the match kings where both the small groups or even if the hornadys where both the small groups but one from each company? The other theory I had was that my barrel only likes bullets between 69-75 grains but I think that is a little hard to take. I may have mixed up the rounds when packing as well but I doubt it.

I need to run this test again but do you guys have any suggestions?

[want2race]

My suggestion: Check the operator headspace and timing.

I couldn't resist.

[steel1212]

My suggestion: Check the operator headspace and timing.

I couldn't resist.

Yeah, well my rifle tester was busy or so he says....

[J-Ho]

I have a weird suggestion. If your rifle has a load it likes, shoot it. If it has a load it doesn't like, don't shoot it. I know this sounds pretty smart ass but I've seen too many weird things too expect results.

[steel1212]

I have a weird suggestion. If your rifle has a load it likes, shoot it. If it has a load it doesn't like, don't shoot it. I know this sounds pretty smart ass but I've seen too many weird things too expect results.

J yeah, I know it just seems odd that these bullets would have groups that big. I mean a 2" group with the 77 SMK? I also need a load that is good to go for the 3 gun match next weekend and it looks like the 69SMK or 75 MHP will be it.

I'll also work up the loads on the 68s and 77s again to see where the accuracy picks up and drops off.

Edited March 23, 2008 by steel1212

[Scout454]

Corey,

What was the range? 77's are generally "erratic" under 200 yards. then they go to sleep and are accurate.

69's seem to shoot all the time.

I couldn't get 68 Hornady's to shoot in anything and I've never tried the 75.

Varget likes to be compressed.

[blkbrd]

Until you have worked up a load for that specific barrels harmonics, a single load and bullet don't mean much.

I was able to get 300 yard 3/4" 10 shot groups out of 77gr. SMK's but only 1.5" out of 75gr. Hornadys.

Above and below the curve, I got mixed results.

Takes lots of loads and testing to find whats perfect for your rifle. And that perfect consistent load will change depending on temperature, phase of the moon ext.

[el pres]

That is strange but if you have any doubt about your ammo labeling practice, which it seems you do,

then the results are all void and you need to start all over..

I usually make 10 of each and put 5 at 100yd and 5 at 300yd and that really tells a story. Then narrow down

and repeat.

Edited March 23, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[steel1212]

Range was 100. Yeah I figured my standard loads would be a little off but I didn't think they would be off by this much. I'm working up my 55 grain hornady load tonight for testing tomorrow then I'll get to the 68 hornady and 77 SMK this week. If it isn't under a 1" at 100 yards after that I won't mess with that pill anymore for this rifle.

3/4 10 shot group at 300 that friggin nuts! Hell I would have been happy with the 1.5 hornadys at 300 yards! Good shooting man!

[steel1212]

That is strange but if you have any doubt about your ammo labeling practice, which it seems you do,

then the results are all void and you need to start all over..

I usually make 10 of each and put 5 at 100yd and 5 at 300yd and that really tells a story. Then narrow down

and repeat.

After I posted that I compared the bullets loaded to the bullets I had on hand and they matched up close enough for me to believe that I didn't screw up there. Like I said I'll work them up again any way to make sure.

[blkbrd]

I do all my load development at 300, its actually meters not yards.

I'm a bit anal about accuracy, just ask Eric or Paul?

My loads are worked up 1/3gr. at a time for AR's. I don't mess with length or primer as I need them to fit & feed in all my mags & rifles. I only use WSR primers as thats what I use for Major 9 and 40.

load 10 of each. Drive 7 minutes to the range and shoot 5 at a time into a group then switch targets for another load group. After each 5 shot group is shot, I go back and put 5 more on paper with each load in reverse. This gives me ten shot groups that are affected by wind, barrel heating and eye strain.

These 10 shot groups give me lots of information on grouping, consistency, wind, and barrel heating. Enabling me to see vertical stinging=harmonic inconsistency, and horizontal stringing=wind and load.

I also throw my charges for load development. Its backward, but it seems the inconsistency of the thrown charges helps me find the best barrel frequency, and tells me what my loads will do under match and weather conditions.

[Craigar45]

Range was 100. Yeah I figured my standard loads would be a little off but I didn't think they would be off by this much. I'm working up my 55 grain hornady load tonight for testing tomorrow then I'll get to the 68 hornady and 77 SMK this week. If it isn't under a 1" at 100 yards after that I won't mess with that pill anymore for this rifle.

3/4 10 shot group at 300 that friggin nuts! Hell I would have been happy with the 1.5 hornadys at 300 yards! Good shooting man!

So what are you cooking up for those 55's?

C

[steel1212]

Range was 100. Yeah I figured my standard loads would be a little off but I didn't think they would be off by this much. I'm working up my 55 grain hornady load tonight for testing tomorrow then I'll get to the 68 hornady and 77 SMK this week. If it isn't under a 1" at 100 yards after that I won't mess with that pill anymore for this rifle.

3/4 10 shot group at 300 that friggin nuts! Hell I would have been happy with the 1.5 hornadys at 300 yards! Good shooting man!

So what are you cooking up for those 55's?

C

Nothing super secret, its in the hornady load manuel but I'm basically starting from scratch on the 3 bullets that didn't work. Going from the starting charge weight to the max in .5 grain increments of varget. If that doesn't work I'll try benchmark and if that doesn't work I'll either have to buy sierras (twice as much) or find another cheap bulk bullet to try hopefully a little heavier. (charge weight from the book is 25.5-27)

Some of the matches I shoot around here are done in the pistol bays so the ranges aren't that far so I can get away with 1.5-2" groups just to use them up. I want that warm fuzzy feeling though with a bullet that is a tack driver and would like to have several options if I can.

Edited March 23, 2008 by steel1212

[Craigar45]

I am working on the same load: hornady 55's over varget... I figure it is probably not the best powder for these bullets, but I have a good bit of it. The only difference is I am going to be running them in a 1:7 twist White Oak barrel. I hope I can get a satisfactory load out of it since I have a 6k pack of 'em.

I typically run Nosler 69grn BTHP for all the longer stuff, but if I can get the hornadys anywhere near 1-1.5MOA I will just stick with it. There are a few matches on my schedule that have some steel at distances out past 300yds- I will probably bring some of the 69's just in case.

C

[steel1212]

55gr Hornady FMJBT, seated to Canlure, WSR primer, Winchester brass, varget powder, 100 yards.

25.5 gave me a 1.5 group

26 gave me a 1.3 group

26.5 gave me 1.2 for 5 shots but 4 shots where .6

27 gave me 1" with a .5 4 shots.

I might try 27.5 as the primers all looked good but I don't know if I can get that much varget in the .223 case with out it spilling everywhere on my dillon. I think this round and varget will work I just need to chorno it but I think 27 grains of varget will be fine and should be above 3k FPS. I'm just shooting off a front bag and using my fist for the stock. I guess if I had a calwell sled or even front vise I would be able to elminate me as much as possible but for close stuff I think this bullet will work well.

[Dan Sierpina]

Corey,

What are you using for a rest? Are you supporting the stock as well?

[steel1212]

Dan, just using a caldwell bag for the front and my fist under the stock. I know I need something a little more stable.

Side note, out to 300 yards which would you pick if the group is about the same. The 69 SMK or the 75 Hornadys? I don't have access to my 300 yard range yet so until I do I won't make a big purchase but just your opinions. Midway has the hornadys in 600 round bulk and they are .15 each and the SMKs are .17 each. The FMJs I just tested are .07 each :-) I want to test them at 300 as well.

[kgunz11]

Until you have worked up a load for that specific barrels harmonics, a single load and bullet don't mean much.

I was able to get 300 yard 3/4" 10 shot groups out of 77gr. SMK's but only 1.5" out of 75gr. Hornadys.

Above and below the curve, I got mixed results.

Takes lots of loads and testing to find whats perfect for your rifle. And that perfect consistent load will change depending on temperature, phase of the moon ext.

+1000000000000000

[Craigar45]

Corey-

Personally, I would go with the 69's- save yourself a few bucks... If you have some matches out past 300yds the heavier bullet might pay off, but that is beyond my experience. Just what are you shooting for? I used to waste good bullets on 3gun matches, but I am hoping to simplify everything to the 55s.

Thanks for posting your groups with the 55 load- when I get the chance I will do the same in my 1:7 white oak to see how they compare. Not surprising that the groups got smaller- Varget just seems to loves a packed case.

C

[Dan Sierpina]

Dan, just using a caldwell bag for the front and my fist under the stock. I know I need something a little more stable.

Side note, out to 300 yards which would you pick if the group is about the same. The 69 SMK or the 75 Hornadys? I don't have access to my 300 yard range yet so until I do I won't make a big purchase but just your opinions. Midway has the hornadys in 600 round bulk and they are .15 each and the SMKs are .17 each. The FMJs I just tested are .07 each :-) I want to test them at 300 as well.

Try and buy a good solid front rest and rear bag. I've been using a Hart front and use a Bald Eagle rear bag. I've had them both a long time. The only aluminum rest I'd buy is a Bald Eagle. Look over at Benchrest Central for stuff in the classifieds or 6mmbr.com.

The longest shots I've encountered here in the Northeast, has been 300 meters. I use 55 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips, over 25.8 of H335. Brass is mixed, primers Remington 7 1/2's for the good bullets. Even with a 1-4x scope, groups are under 1/2 at 100 yards. On the other hand, some left over highpower ammo using Hornady 75's over RL15 shoots the same size groups. Barrel is a Wilson match grade blank, 18 1/2" long, chamber is SAAMI .223 Remington. I know what the barrel and chamber is, since I machined and chambered the barrel blank.

For the close stuff, 100 yards and under. I use Remington 55 hollow points or soft points. Again H335 for powder. Those shoot a bit under 1" at 100.

[Craigar45]

Finally made it out to shoot my 55's- Similar results to Steel's. 27grns was a packed case, but it definitely loaded up best.

C

[Shawn Knight]

when I get the chance I will do the same in my 1:7 white oak to see how they compare. Not surprising that the groups got smaller- Varget just seems to loves a packed case.

C

My White Oak Match rifle love 26gr of RE15 under a 68. 24.5 for a 75. Hornady bullets have been soem of the best for me. THe 68s seem to like being loaded long depending on you magazine length.

I have also tried the Berger 73gr and they really rock but they are $$$$.

[steel1212]

I got the 77 smk to under .5 today. I bumped it up to 25 grains of varget and everything was good. The 68 MHP I couldn't care about but I want the sierras to work well. I'll probably still use the 69s if I go anywhere with some long shots just do to cost and I think they will be fine for anything a 556 is gonna be doing....I think

[Tattoo]

55gr Hornady FMJBT, seated to Canlure, WSR primer, Winchester brass, varget powder, 100 yards.

25.5 gave me a 1.5 group

26 gave me a 1.3 group

26.5 gave me 1.2 for 5 shots but 4 shots where .6

27 gave me 1" with a .5 4 shots.

I might try 27.5 as the primers all looked good but I don't know if I can get that much varget in the .223 case with out it spilling everywhere on my dillon. I think this round and varget will work I just need to chorno it but I think 27 grains of varget will be fine and should be above 3k FPS. I'm just shooting off a front bag and using my fist for the stock. I guess if I had a calwell sled or even front vise I would be able to elminate me as much as possible but for close stuff I think this bullet will work well.

I had the EXACT same groups for each charge in my rifle too. 27.0 gr ran at 3000 fps in a 16" rifle.

T

[Hank Ellis]

I've been working up loads for my Clark Gator and have tried a technique I got from Glen Zediker in his book 'Handloading for Competition'.

Say you've picked all your components and now just need to figure out what charge will work best in your rifle. Start with your minimum charge. 25.0gr for example. Load one cartridge. Load the next one at 25.2. The next at 25.4. Continue till your max load.

Load the hottest load first in the mag continuing in order till the softest. Set a target to 200yd. Bag or rest the gun so your point of aim is repeatable. Shoot each round making notes as to the exactly where the bullet hit. You'll need a spotting scope or what I do is set up a camcorder a few feet uprange from the target to film the hits.

What you're looking for are the sweet spots. Ignore the deviations from windage. Places where 3 or 4 bullets are impacting very near each other in elevation. When it falls off the sweet spot the bullets will start going high and low till it finds another sweet spot. Hard to describe but the illustrations in the book make it clear.

Didn't believe it would work but I loaded up a few at one of the sweet spots. First try at it with Hornady 52 A-Max and AA2015 resulted in sub MOA. Easy A zone hits at 300yd unsupported prone. I've got more work to do but for a first shot at it the results were impressive.