rtr Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 It is my understanding that all guns regardless of caliber and the power factor of their ammo are classed as minor if they are shot in production, can anyone explain to me why this is true? Or tell me if I'm mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 All guns 9mm on up. It is true because it is spelled out in the rulebook's Appendix E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 I think they wanted a division where the 9mm crowd could compete without any disadvantage. If .40 major was allowed it would produce an equipment race as people abandoned their 17s for 22s, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 I agree w/ John. Look at the classes where you have a choice of shooting minor or major; few people choose to shoot minor (although there are a few, of course). If you allowed Major in Production, I cannot imagine that Production would be any different than the other classes and most shooters would choose to shoot major. Good job, USPSA, for keeping production Minor only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 USPSA leadership realized the 9mm Parabellum is a very popular defensive caliber. They wanted their Production division 9mm friendly. If they'd stuck to the standard Major/Minor system of scoring, that wouldn't have been the case and all the guys toting Glock 19s, SIG P228s, HK USP 9mm Compacts, etc. wouldn't have come out to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 Whoa there, pilgrims. Credit where credit is due. Production Division, with the "Minor only" requirement, was introduced by IPSC in November 1999. It wasn't adopted by USPSA until March 2000, with numerous changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banjobart Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 In Major/Minor scoring the playing field is already level. 9mm is easier and faster to shoot so it naturally scores less on C anfd D hits. Center hits are the same. Major requires longer to get back on target, so it scores more than Minor. Who needs this "Minor scoring only" rule in Production Division? I think that it just hampers the Division and is one of USPSA's dumbest rules. If Production could score Major then we could get rid of Limted 10 Division which would then be a duplication of Production and be redundant. We could also get rid of the IDPA equipment rules for Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Many DA shooters feel better in prod, as they feel their guns cannot be competitve against SA autos. This of course is not necessarily so. Production is our best bet for attracting new shooters. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 heeey..an opportunity for me to throw this in... I think Minor Bravo hit should be worth 4 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 heeey..an opportunity for me to throw this in... I think Minor Bravo hit should be worth 4 points. I agree...or make it an alpha....like IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Bangobart, If we did that then we could drop production and L10 and call it Limited and be right back where we were. I don't shoot either but I do notice the numbers of IDPA guys and LE officers who are showing up because they no longer have to compete with my 20 rd major .40. Every shooter gained is a shooter we needed. I think these two divisions were a good move. More work for the stats guy but worth every bit of it. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Addition to my last post, several years ago (8 or 9) I sold a really nice single stack 45 built by Nolin sr to get the money for a hi cap .40. I always wondered what happened to that pistol. At a match a couple of mts ago a young fella showed up shooting L10, it was fun to stand back and watch ol 669 punch those clean holes in cardboard just like it was meant to and has for 20+ years. Production and L10 have brought more than people. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 heeey..an opportunity for me to throw this in... I think Minor Bravo hit should be worth 4 points. I agree...or make it an alpha....like IDPA. Making the Bravo an Alpha might be a stretch (and hard to convince others). I worked up some hit factor data in the past that supported making a Minor Bravo hit worth four points. I don't think anyone wants to hear about it though...or put the thought into considering it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 I worked up some hit factor data in the past that supported making a Minor Bravo hit worth four points. I don't think anyone wants to hear about it though...or put the thought into considering it. maybe our friend Darth might!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 6, 2003 Share Posted June 6, 2003 You rang? Hey, I have no objection to Minor Bravo being scored 4 points and I've always thought it made a lot of sense, however the Major/Minor scoring values are one of the few remaining Holy Grails of IPSC. Here's the deal: somebody get a region to propose it at a General Assembly, and I'll get Hong Kong to vote in favour (except for Production Division, which I think should remain all Minor), but I can't initiate the proposal. You see, I only have two cajones and I need both of them, 'coz I'd hate to sing soprano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted June 6, 2003 Share Posted June 6, 2003 You rang?Hey, I have no objection to Minor Bravo being scored 4 points and I've always thought it made a lot of sense, however the Major/Minor scoring values are one of the few remaining Holy Grails of IPSC. Here's the deal: somebody get a region to propose it at a General Assembly, and I'll get Hong Kong to vote in favour (except for Production Division, which I think should remain all Minor), but I can't initiate the proposal. You see, I only have two cajones and I need both of them, 'coz I'd hate to sing soprano Well, since SWMBO took both of mine and I don't need them , I'll hammer at the Area 8 folks and see what breaks. Flex, you want to try 5 since that is yours? Any other production shooters want to jump on board? Worst they can do is tell me no... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 I also think Production should stay Minor. ( I agree with the tactical roots arguement. ) Minor Bravo being 4 points makes sense to my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Minor...no problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Hi folks, Since this topic has been "bumped" back to life, allow me state without fear of contradiction, that changing IPSC Production Division to Major/Minor scoring is just never going to happen. To do so now, 5 years down the line, would immediately cause all the 9mm guns currently in use to lose value, and we're simply not in the business of screwing competitors or the investments they make in equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 I bumped this back up since there was a new thread started on this subject that was closed...because we had been down that road. Here is the thread to talk about it on. Oh...I agree with Vince's statement: "...and we're simply not in the business of screwing competitors or the investments they make in equipment. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 I thought it was bumped to re-iterate the Minor-Baker-4-issue. I'm for it, just 'cause I like shooting a follow-up headshot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midvalleyshooter Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Best regards, Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Potential production shooters might be more inclined to venture out and shoot along the S_I's and Para's with their DA pistols if they were given the same points for their hits. Hmmm...we have 5 Divisions. Which should all be scored seperate...like 5 matches rolled into one. What does a Production shooter care what the shooters in the single-action divisions are doing? (And, what about those that choose to shoot Minor in Limitied/10?) BTW...I think we have another thread devoted to this particular line of thought too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Because I like knowing how I did compared to people in other divisions. Yes I know I'm only competing with other Prod shooters, but if I beat a decent open shooter while shooting production, I wanna know about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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