My First Open Gun

[Jeff686]

My first open gun arrived today. I thought I’d share a few of the details with everyone. Please keep in mind that I’m VERY NEW to open guns.

For the last several years, I’ve been shooting an ‘economy’ 1911 in L-10. I recently made B-Class, but was frequently winning at many of the local matches in my division. It seems that with the advent of Single Stack, there are not that many people in L-10 where I live. I considered getting a Limited gun, but that seemed like a lot of money just to get bigger mags. If figured I might as well go all the way to the dark side, and buy and open gun.

I was planning on buying a new 9mm Gold Team, but when presented with a great offer from one of the members online, I had to take him up on it. It is a slightly used 38 SC with a black C-More. It came with 2.5K of Armscor brass, a case, springs, and several magazines, including a big-stick, all tuned and ready to run. It also has all the EGW/Henning trigger work.

RELOADING:

Everything but the actual gun arrived last week, shipped directly to me. I had also just received new 38SC dies for my Dillon Square Deal, and bought some powder and bullets locally. In anticipation of the arrival of my new gun, I loaded up a hundred rounds of copper plated 124gr RN Ranier bullets with 6.9gr of IMR7625 and WSR primers. I knew this would be minor, but thought it was a safe place to start. I know, some of you may cringe at the plated bullets, and you might be right. I didn’t have many choices locally. We'll see how they work.

I did have an interesting problem (discussed in a different thread). The Armscor brass does not all fit in the shell plate. Some of the rims are too thick. I had to sort it, and set aside about 400 pieces, for later consideration. I gather this is not a problem for those using the 550 (or fancier) presses. Maybe the SDB shell plate has tighter tolerances for some reason.

ARRIVAL

I had the gun shipped to a local FFL near my office. Unbeknownst to me, he was closed New Years Week. I had to wait (watching UPS online tracking: exception, exception, exception) until the gun was delivered today (his first day back).

The gun looks to be in great shape. There is a noticeable nick on the compensator (gunsmith must have slipped), and the anti-skid treatment of the grips isn’t perfect. However, all-in-all, it looks really nice.

I couldn’t wait to try it out, so I skipped out of work at lunch and went to the range for the afternoon.

TRIGGER

I was a little surprised by the trigger. It seems to be an appropriate weight, but had significant take-up/over-travel/reset. Having a very nice trigger on my 1911 (thanks to Mr. V. Tripp), I was not overly enthused by the Tanfoglio trigger. It is supposed to have Henning’s famous trigger job, with the EGW parts.

Upon further inspection, I found that the over travel set screw was fully retracted. This, of course, didn’t look right. I adjusted it until the trigger didn’t work, then backed it out until it work every time. Now, the trigger feels much better. There is still some take-up, but the over-travel/reset is very comfortable. Nice, but not as nice as my 1911 (or maybe just different, and I need to get used to it.)

Question: can a gunsmith reduce the take-up?

SAFETY

I was shocked at how difficult the safety is to operate. I have very small hands, and my thumb does not reach the safety completely, so I don’t have the best leverage. I seriously considered that something might be wrong. After playing with it some more, I’ve decided that it is probably normal, but very tight.

Question: can a gunsmith reduce the force to move the safety?

SHOOTING

When I got to the range, I immediately took it out for a few quick shots, just to make sure everything was working. The thing I really love about this gun, the reason I bought it, is that it really feels natural in my hand. It points easy, and feels comfortable.

So, there I was, ready for the first shot, steel plates at 15 yards. Squeeze… click. No Bang! I waited a few seconds and cycled the slide, ejecting the unspent round. There was a nice firing pin mark in the primer. I’m always careful to seat my primers. After playing with it for a while, I had about 50% success rate. I’m not sure why.

I’m positive that Henning said he uses Winchester small RIFLE primers. I’m supposed to have his long firing pin, so all should be fine. Later, after re-reading his notes, I found that a 13 lbs hammer spring and EGW hammer might not work well with the rifle primers. He also said the only reason for the rifle primer is to get a little more out of SP2 or N105. Next time, I’ll use pistol primers. I’m sure the issue will go away.

There was another problem, however. Every 10 rounds or so, it didn’t pick up a fresh cartridge. It wasn’t a jam, just an empty chamber. I also noticed that the slide did not lock back after firing the last round. I confirmed that the slide-stop was working by hand cycling the slide on an empty magazine. I assume that the slide was short-stroking. The gun currently has a 14 lb spring. I measured my ammo over the chrony at about 161pf. I’m a little worried. Shouldn’t 161pf work the slide with a full stroke? I see that Henning is running a 10 lb spring. Maybe when I juice it up a little (or try a lighter spring) it will work.

I also noticed that I wasn’t getting much action from the comp/ports. I only assume that they’ll start working better when I juice it up more. This is my first open gun, and don’t know how easily I’ll notice a change with incremental increases in powder.

SLIDE RACKER

The slide racker was mounted on the right hand side of the pistol. I assumed this was because the previous owner is left handed. However, after moving it over to the left side, I noticed that it is precariously close to my strong hand thumb. Maybe I’m worrying over nothing, or maybe I should move it back to the right side.

OVERALL

Great Gun!!! I’m very happy, and am not too concerned about getting the bugs worked out. I’m sure the problems are with me and my ammo, not the gun.

Exceptions:

1. Nick on compensator is ugly. Maybe I’ll shave a little off the top and get rid of the nick.

2. The take-up seems a bit long. Maybe that can be fixed.

3. Safety is hard to move. Maybe that can be fixed.

Edited January 9, 2008 by Jeff686

[HSMITH]

Jeff, move the slide racker back to the other side if it is close to your hand, they bite like you can't even imagine until it bites you!!

The rest of the stuff is all minor, if the gun feels good in your hand you are most of the way home.

Congrats on a great new gun!!!!

[JThompson]

Get with Henning on the issues... he will know what to do.

Pictures?

[al503]

Congrats, Jeff. Can't wait to see you shoot it at a match.

In terms of getting enough gas to work the compensator, try some slower powders (like the 105, SP2 you mentioned when you can find them) as well as 3n38, etc. You'll need a lot more powder (9-10+ grains to get to make major) but they will produce much more gas to work the comp better.

[sinnsyk]

Hi Jeff,

Congrats on the new gun. Give me a call and I can guide you through everything. Today I've been at the machine shop all day working on the new aluminum grips. They're going to be pretty slick.. I'll be working on the all day tomorrow as well, but I'm available on my cell phone (720) 352 1080.

[ks-shooter]

Jeff, Welcome to the dark side Long post but here are some thoughts from another fairly new convert. Slide racker...I keep mine on the right for two reasons. I can disassemble the gun without removing it AND yeah, it sits real close to the thumb which is riding the safety. I do not need to yank my own thumb off the gun during a clearing exercise.

On to Armscor Brass: my gun came with some once fired and some fully loaded rounds. My first outing with the gun I had lots of problems and to make a long story shorter the main problem was Armscor Brass. Primers fell out of the shells and jammed the gun and the magazine!!!! REALLY I asked Henning if he knew of any problem with Armscor Brass and he said some earlier brass did have oversize primer pockets Reloading Armscor brass gave my 650 press fits with mostly priming. I was loading Starline and Armscor. I now only load one....STARLINE and all is well. I will be selling all my Armscor brass as I have had no problems with Starline SuperComp.

There is an adjustment you can do inside the gun to adjust the takeup. Henning can explain it to you as I only found out about it this weekend and mine is pretty good so I did not mess with it. I don't believe the trigger will ever be as nice as my STI because it is a pivoting trigger but that is one of the tradeoffs and it is good enough as long as you practice with it. It certainly works for Henning and some guy named Eric

The safety works best if you PUSH it forward for on and depress it for off. I am sure it can be lightened and again, Henning can tell you how. I also took Emery cloth (Very fine) and worked on the back edge of both the Gold and the Limited and removed what used to be a very sharp edge. Now it is comfortable.

I believe you are correct on the Rifle primers and Pistol primers with the 13 pound spring. I just ordered my 13 pound springs from Henning and I will be switching from Rifle to Pistol primers so I can further lighten the trigger. 7625 powder at around 7.5 grains does not seem to cause anyone pressure problems. I had just stayed with what I loaded for the STI.

Most people do not want the slide to lock open and they use an EGW hardened "slide release" pin to replace the standard pin. Honestly, I hacked off the portion that sticks through the slide on mine except for about 1/32 as I use the slide release lever to index my grip. When the joint of my thumb is on it I know I have my hand where I want it. I believe some people put some grip tape in the spot where their thumb rests to do the same job. There is supposed to be a problem with the factory pin bending (too soft) and that is why the replacement is specifically hardened. I use a 10lb spring and all is well. As a side note I tested my Limited with the 10lb spring on my production (mouse fart) minor loads and it cycled and fed perfectly even with "short" loaded rounds I use in my XD.

Again....Welcome and yes, the guns are great and you could not ask for a better mentor than Henning. His service is GREAT and he will work with you to get your gun working at it's best!

edited to add: Wow, hard to believe someone who knows so little can write so much!

Edited January 9, 2008 by ks-shooter

[LeoHallak]

The slide racker come on the right side for the factory and if you noticed there is a little hole drilled into the slide for the set screw to lock into. Switching to the left side does leave it a little close to the hand, I have gotten into the habit of just not using the racker, on my gold team or my SVI.

If its not locking back to slide lock on a empty magazine I have to assume someone modified the lock, I am surprised it just doesn't have the pin it only that Henning sells I prefer that anyways and never go to slide lock.

It sounds like you are getting light strikes because you do not have enough crimp and not hitting battery fully, you might want to check that, it might have tight tolerances. You can also check if you have Hennings long pin or the EGW. I have used both without a problem at the moment I use Hennings with Federal Small Rifle.

Trust me when you knock it up to around 7.4 of 7625 you will love it, its a nice flat shooter with more then enough comp action. I have tried some N350 and 3N37 and I prefer the 7625. Remember you cant compare this guns to a lot of other open guns with bigger barrel ports because I have found it to be a little less brutal for sure inside compared to some of the guys I shoot with who use Tribrids and Have comps with side porting on them. Henning Likes to open his comp up a little more and maybe we can talk him into showing some pictures and measurements if we can get him out of the machine shop.

I would also dump the rainier and get some Montana's or some Zero's, never had much luck with the rainier at these velocity's.

If you aren't picking rounds off off the magazine sounds like its not seated right, because a 16lb recoil spring in that gun is a beast, I run a 10lb with no problem. It could be a follower problem? does it have the grams kit in it?

Leo

[IYAOYAS]

The slide racker come on the right side for the factory and if you noticed there is a little hole drilled into the slide for the set screw to lock into. Switching to the left side does leave it a little close to the hand, I have gotten into the habit of just not using the racker, on my gold team or my SVI.

If its not locking back to slide lock on a empty magazine I have to assume someone modified the lock, I am surprised it just doesn't have the pin it only that Henning sells I prefer that anyways and never go to slide lock.

It sounds like you are getting light strikes because you do not have enough crimp and not hitting battery fully, you might want to check that, it might have tight tolerances. You can also check if you have Hennings long pin or the EGW. I have used both without a problem at the moment I use Hennings with Federal Small Rifle.

Trust me when you knock it up to around 7.4 of 7625 you will love it, its a nice flat shooter with more then enough comp action. I have tried some N350 and 3N37 and I prefer the 7625. Remember you cant compare this guns to a lot of other open guns with bigger barrel ports because I have found it to be a little less brutal for sure inside compared to some of the guys I shoot with who use Tribrids and Have comps with side porting on them. Henning Likes to open his comp up a little more and maybe we can talk him into showing some pictures and measurements if we can get him out of the machine shop.

I would also dump the rainier and get some Montana's or some Zero's, never had much luck with the rainier at these velocity's.

If you aren't picking rounds off off the magazine sounds like its not seated right, because a 16lb recoil spring in that gun is a beast, I run a 10lb with no problem. It could be a follower problem? does it have the grams kit in it?

Leo

The comp has been opened to Hennings specs. The gun ran fine with everything I fed it. He wanted the heavy spring in the gun. The mags were put together by Henning with all gram parts. The gun shoots 1.5 at 50 yards with MG 121 and zero 125jhp and 7.2 7625. The gun had ambis on it installed by Henning. He wanted the big single side on. The slide racker that came with gun was taken off. I had to buy another one from Henning before I shipped the gun. Henning had this gun for a couple of months. Everything in or on this gun Henning installed. There is nothing wrong with the gun. I would check my loads.

[LeoHallak]

So this means we can blame Henning. Thats always been my backup plan.

leo

[Jeff686]

Well, I'm happy to report that I found the take-up adjustment screw. Now the trigger is really sweet. I'll have to shoot it a while, then maybe consider adding a touch of blue loctite.

Now I just need to fix my primer ignition problem, and maybe adjust the safety a little, and I'll be good to go.

My load:

Armscor RL brass

WSR primers

6.9gr of 7625 (plan to increase)

Ranier plated 125gr RN

OAL 1.256 - 1.259 (oops I was aiming for 1.245)

Crimp is .378 (as best I can measure)

OAL too long?

Crimp too little or too much?

[JoshF]

Crimp too little or too much?

Jeff, not sure on the OAL but I'm surry Henning, Leo or KS shooter can help there (they are all good people). Your crimp however seems a little light. If you are using plated raniers they do not like high velocities typically or a heavy crimp due to the very thin plating. Your crimp should be the bullet diameter (.355 or .356) plus the case thickness (typicall .010 per side for .020 total). So .375 should be your goal. I usually shoot for this then pull a bullet and check the indents on the bullet. Since brass has spring to it you will acually be pushing the crimp past and it will spring back (plated bullets tend to have "Spring" too). So this is always a good check. The jacketed bullets will help here a lot as they aren't as sensitive. Plated bullets will litterally fly apart if the crimp gets too agressive, especially at those velocities (does add extra hits on your target though!)

[Jeff686]

Thanks Josh!!

Now I have a better understanding. I'll have to keep playing with the plated right now

I'm going to order some Zeros and MG bullets, since I can't get them locally.

Educate me: why does not getting full battery lead to light strikes? Isn't the breachface already tight with the primer? I would think that too much crimp might make the round chamber too far, and lead to light strikes. Sorry, my ignorance is showing.

[JoshF]

Educate me: why does not getting full battery lead to light strikes? Isn't the breachface already tight with the primer? I would think that too much crimp might make the round chamber too far, and lead to light strikes. Sorry, my ignorance is showing.

Tanfoglios run a tight chamber typically on their "Elite" models (not sure about others). Insufficient crimp could leave a flare that drags the chamber wall not leading to a full chambered round. When the hammer drops that miniscule amount could mean the hammer doesn't hit the firing pin with sufficient force as it will hit the FP retainer early. This my take on it though and I could be wrong

[LeoHallak]

Educate me: why does not getting full battery lead to light strikes? Isn't the breachface already tight with the primer? I would think that too much crimp might make the round chamber too far, and lead to light strikes. Sorry, my ignorance is showing.

Tanfoglios run a tight chamber typically on their "Elite" models (not sure about others). Insufficient crimp could leave a flare that drags the chamber wall not leading to a full chambered round. When the hammer drops that miniscule amount could mean the hammer doesn't hit the firing pin with sufficient force as it will hit the FP retainer early. This my take on it though and I could be wrong

I run 1.245 and sometimes shorter with round nose Zeros and have yet to have a problem. Josh is right on with what he figures crimp at. I am not sure how much Longer you can get without running into problems. Henning is working on aluminum grips today so he wont be around till late tonite and he will be able to help a little more.

this is off rainier site about velocity's.

Q3. Do your bullets have ANY velocity restrictions?

A. In general, our bullets typically perform their best when shot at velocities no greater than 1,200 to 1,250 Feet per second (FPS).

I have yet to try the Montana gold 121's yet you might try those or for sure zero's

Leo

BTW: my 40 limited is forgiving on chamber, but my gold team can have problems with not enough crimp, and i know this from personal experience.

Edited January 9, 2008 by LeoHallak

[Jeff686]

Can I determine if it is in full battery without going to the range?

I'm tempted to put my reloading bench in the truck, and drive it to the range

[LeoHallak]

Can I determine if it is in full battery without going to the range?

I'm tempted to put my reloading bench in the truck, and drive it to the range

load some rounds. Pull the barrel case check them with the barrel and see how it feels.

I talked with Henning and the gun should be fine. It sounds like your loads are the problem.

[JThompson]

I say get that damn load up there were it should be and I bet the thing runs. You have a heavy recoil spring in there and a mouse fart for a load... it ain't gonna run right like that.

[Jeff686]

load some rounds. Pull the barrel case check them with the barrel and see how it feels.

I talked with Henning and the gun should be fine. It sounds like your loads are the problem.

OK, but I don't have a reference point for comparison.

How does this look:

[Mo Hepworth]

Hi Jeff,

Congrats on the new gun. Give me a call and I can guide you through everything. Today I've been at the machine shop all day working on the new aluminum grips. They're going to be pretty slick.. I'll be working on the all day tomorrow as well, but I'm available on my cell phone (720) 352 1080.

very interested to see the final product.

[Dave Gundry]

Well, I'm happy to report that I found the take-up adjustment screw. Now the trigger is really sweet. I'll have to shoot it a while, then maybe consider adding a touch of blue loctite.

Keep in mind you can't eliminate all of the pretravel on Tanfoglio's - they need a bit of slack to reset properly

[ipscbob]

A year back I had a lot of problems with Armscor 38 RL brass. I was having stoppages every 15-20 cases or so in my 550B due to severely off center primer pockets. I stopped loading them and went back to Starline scomp and the problems disapeared. I think I might have a couple thousand RL cases lying around somewhere. PM me if you want to buy them

[Chuck Anderson]

Sounds like the gun is shortstroking. If the slide stop works when hand cycled but not when firing it normally means the slide isn't coming far enough back. A couple things could be wrong. The recoil spring could be too heavy for a minor PF load. If Henning is using a 10lb and you've got a 14 or 16 lb, that would be my first guess. The other could be that the recoil spring is too long. There are severl threads on how to check to see if the spring it too long on this site. Quickly though, how much travel does the slide have beyond where the slide stop engages. If it's none or very little, the recoil spring is probably too long and binding. A lot of recoil spings come too long so that you can trim them to fit.

Edited for late night typing.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Lawman

[JThompson]

Sounds like the gun is shortstroking. If the slide stop works when hand cycled but not when firing it normally means the slide isn't coming far enough back. A couple things could be wrong. The recoil spring could be too light for a minor PF load. If Henning is using a 10lb and you've got a 14 or 16 lb, that would be my first guess. The other could be that the recoil spring is too long. There are severl threads on how to check to see if the spring it too long on this site. Quickly though, how much travel does the slide have beyond where the slide stop engages. If it's none or very little, the recoil spring is probably too long and binding. A lot of recoil spings come too long so that you can trim them to fit.

Don't you mean to heavy for minor loads?

Here's my take on it... if Henning worked on the gun and nobody messed with it it will run. So that means if it hasn't been tweaked by someone else I would get a 10lb spring back in there and get some known good brass and a load that is strong enough to cycle the gun. PM Henning for a good load, and he will set you up with a good one. Do that and I bet you won't have any issues. Henning did the mags and the work... the only reason it wouldn't run is that someone changed something and or load/brass have changed.

Edited January 10, 2008 by JThompson

[Chuck Anderson]

Yep, initial post has been edited.

[Jeff686]

There's no doubt it's not the gun. I've never loaded 38 super before. Plus for safety sake, I started with an obviously minor load. Also, it's hard to get bullets locally, so the plated were my only choice. I couldn't stand to wait...

Anyway. I've got an order in for some MG. I'll also try to get some of the HAP that Henning likes. Then, I'll try again.