megaman Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 i cracked open THE BOOK , this evening and re-read a passage where brian notes the ammout of ammo he went through. he made note of how much he shot in matches and in practice in one year. he then this ammount was less than subsequent years, and i was curious whether brian is shooting even less in practice, or "a dumpster full" like the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 When I developed a SERIOUS training regimen, my round ct. dropped. I used to shoot 300 rds of 38 supercomp AND 300 rds of 9mm every session twice a week. At steel challenge type setups, very unorganized. This morning I shot 300 rds of supercomp in the same time frame with a much more organized and benefical schedule. I didn't want to shoot less rds., but focusing on my weaknesses caused it to happen. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 "I didn't want to shoot less rds., but focusing on my weaknesses caused it to happen." That's good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Currently I'm not shooting at all. But in my last several years of serious competition, my "rounds fired in practice" continued to decline. My dry-training remained about the same, however. By that point I had just shot soooo much, I wasn't seeing much improvement in skills by practicing. A large part of my range time in later years was devoted to working out bad habits that crept in unnoticed. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Brian, How long has it been since you fired a pistol? Just curious.... Jake, My fave drill today was draw, 2, reload, 2 ,reload 2 on the plate rack. 300 rds lasts a looooooong time with those kinda drills vs. draw and blast 5. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 It could also last longer because you are more focused in developing your weak points instead of just blasting away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaman Posted May 1, 2003 Author Share Posted May 1, 2003 to have not shot in a while and to STILL be ranked in the top 15% in the GM class on the uspsa website we should all be so lucky. iguess it's time to fill another dumpster for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 I have a belief, acquired from who knows where, that as you get better, the actual number of rounds you need to fire decreases. I suspect it's because by some point, you get more than passing familliar with the fundamental requirements of aim the gun, fire the gun, call the shot and can focus on other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 I only know the appr. round count of 2 top shooters. Eric Grauffel and Saul Kirsch. I know Eric shoots about 500 rounds a day. That's probably (hollidays and days off included) at least 100.000 rounds a year. I don't think that shooting that much will make you MUCH better than shooting 50.000 rounds, but will just add that 4-5% more skill and probably the greatest benefit is the ability to perform consistantly. Eric probably shoots twice as much as say, Jerry Barnhart. He is not twice as good. It just gives him a marginal advantage (a pretty large marginal advantage, but still...) OTOH, he has only shot 25000 rnds. through his limited gun, and could probably win the world shoot with that too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 I spoke very briefly with Jerry Barnhart one time while I was ordering some grips, tapes, etc. I don't even remember how it came up, but we spent a few seconds talking about quantity of practice rounds vs. quality. I don't want to misquote Jerry, but I can tell you my overall impression was that he goes through extended periods of time with very little "practice" and the amount of ammunition expended declined as he improved. I am not any great shooter by any stretch of the imagination, but I really do subscribe to quality and meaning in practice vs. quantity. When I go to the range, I not only know which drills I am going to perform, I also know why I am going to do the drills and I have an idea of whether the drills are meant to be diagnostic or for skill development. It is rare for me to shoot more than 150-200 rounds in any single practice session. It seems to me that for the average guy, the road to the next class up is not paved exclusively with spent cartridges. Sure trigger time is vital, but there is a whole lot more to improvement than just shooting until you are ankle deep in brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddS Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 I had the pleasure of spending most of a week with Jerry Barnhart when he was training for FIPT several years ago. He rented a bay at the range where my agency was qualifying during the same time period. I ended up blowing off my duties instructing my officers most of the week, and hanging out and annoying Jerry. He was with his family and pulled his trailer and truck into the range and stayed there. He would shoot 200 rounds every morning doing pre-planned drills that covered most of what you will see in every match. He worked hard on his movement and transitioning from static to dynamic. It took him less than an hour. In the afternoons he would play. We would shoot skeet, trap, play pistol games, just relax and shoot. He would go through another couple hundred rounds. He is one hell of a nice guy when he is in relaxed mode. The morning sessions he was intense, just like he was at a match. The afternoons were for play. When we played competitive games, I was constantly amazed at his gaming ability and the shortcuts he came up with. I would name the game and the rules, he could always come up with a better way than I could. That was sheer experience. I don't know about the other big boys, but Jerry looks at shooting as work, and he is a perfectionist. I was truley in awe at his dedication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Yeah, that's another thing. I think learning to shoot is in a way sort of like learning how to ride a bicycle. Once you've spent some time (rounds) you know the basics and you can spend more time on the stuff that's beyond that. There are definately skills that either do not deteriorate or come back fast after they went. These stories about Jerry prove that. He probably can go for years without shooting and still shoot fast and accurately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Maybe as you get better, you learn more from every shot. Or at least, you've got the capability to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBurkett Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Shred, Not only that, but, also the ability to recognize improvements that may be unnoticeable to anyone else. For me the learning curve went from a high round count unfocused practice to medium or low round count extremely focused practice. Jerry when he was starting out shot 400 rounds a day with his .45 for 30 days straight. Now that is not nec. anymore as the basics have been refined and he understands what he wants to see. Once you can ride the bike, you can always ride the bike and if you take a break it takes less time to get back on it. I think the issue with most shooters is that they haven't learned to really shoot and be able to just observe the action/reaction in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Capizzo Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 "I think the issue with most shooters is that they haven't learned to really shoot and be able to just observe the action/reaction in the first place." Matt's comment really struck me. I've been shooting IPSC/USPSA a very long time, but I've never really been able to shoot a lot. I'm a mid-level "B" limited shooter. With the amount of shooting information available now, through this forum and Matt's, Matt's DVD's, Brian's book, etc., the need to put a zillion rounds down range just to understand the essentials of something like target transitions is not as critical as it once was. We can expend fewer rounds trying to figure out the key to this skill or that, because these resources can tell us - "This is what to be aware of." This is very good!! Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 After while, you get to the point that actually shooting isn't needed as much except to work out a problem or two, or fine tune something you saw a weakness in. Continual dry fire, yes. The shooting at matches takes the place of trigger time at the practice range. Now having said that, there is always something that yu can improve, but I see no real need for most GM's to shoot 100k rounds per year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Well put Matt. Yes, when you reach a point when you are aware of subtle details, the number of rounds fired in practice becomes less important. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Coming back into the game - I'll be curious as to how I perform, and the amount of time and dedication needed to get back to 98% of where I WAS. I say WAS because the game evolves. Think about the fact that Bill Wilson and gang probably thought they had it all figured out until two guys named Rob Leatham and Brian Enos popped up. Of course Jerry then emerged and it was Rob and Jerry for the longest time. But then Todd started winning - and winning ALOT which took Rob and Jerry out of it for a short bit, before they re-focused and were able adjust to the changes in the game. The game did change - and I believe that practice sessions and round counts jumped for both Rob and Jerry. Frankly I can remember a time when Rob didn't shoot a ton - he still shot but not as much as I was. And I remember a time when he was shooting everyday and damn near all day - trying to find whatever it was that he thought he'd lost. I have always subscribed to short practice sessions and low round count. I have ALWAYS wanted to leave the range wishing I had just a few more rounds - it left me continuing to think about it - which in all actuality extended the practice session through the drive home and into the house where I started dry firing after most practice sessions. The quality of practice is invaluable, and needs to be there. But I will swing back to my ultimate athlete ideology - Tiger Woods appears to continually practice, continually work out, continually drive his game to new levels which explains why even respected players on the tour often times scratch their heads and ask "how in the Hell did he pull that off?" I would guess its his dedication to knowing that there is SOMETHING more that he can do - and he needs to find that something so he can move onto the next something. The quality of practice is critical - but practice in general is as well. Dry firing is critical - but so is live fire. I can totally relate to Brian's statement - didn't feel like I was getting as much out of the practice sessions as I should. I can also say that I often had the same feelings when I was a B class shooter. It makes me wonder if there's not another level in my game??? This is a good discussion - and for the record - I probably won't practice as much as I should or would like - but I think that practice and round count are important as well as inter-related. It only takes one practice session (in hundreds) to open a hidden door and unlock the potential inside. I hate to condradict the posts of the people in this forum whom I respect - especially our host who I respect and has taught me more than he will ever forget - but I've been thinking about this exact subject a lot lately and those are some of the conclusions I've come to. Hell - I bought Tiger's book to help evolve both my shooting and Golf game (God help me if I shoot as poorly as I golf!) JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kline Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 Jack, What is Tiger's book about, his life story or his golfing/mental/practice game? Also, how was the book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 It was his mechanics of Golf book. All in all a great book - if your a good player. For someone like me its a little advanced. I am a bit in awe of him as a competitor though which is why I research him so much. His mental fortitude is pretty incredible. His book is ok - but unless your a player (and not a hacker like me) it probably won't teach you that much. JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kline Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 Thanks, appreicate the tip. No I'm not a player or fan of golf, i've tried to be, I just don't have the interest in it. I just can't get into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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