BDH Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Here's one for you (and hopefully it is addressed in the upcoming rule changes)....... You have two pits side by side with a large berm in between them. At the end of the berm is a safety area. As long as the shooter in the safety area is pointing his/her firearm straight ahead, then they are pointing directly into the end of the berm. However, if they point their firearms slightly off of straight ahead, then they are pointing their firearm into either the pit to their left, or the pit to their right. Okay, so we have a shooter in the safety area practicing his draws, and it turns out that his muzzle is pointing directly into one of the stages. One of the RO's happens to look uprange only to be looking straight down the muzzle of a firearm, not once, but several times! The RO walks up to the shooter and asks him to please keep your firearms pointed straight ahead and into the berm (which I hope everyone would agree is a reasonible request). A few minutes later, the RO again sees the shooter pointing his firearm into the stage, so he approaches the shooter again. Unfortunately, the shooter responds with "I'm in a safety area.... I am pointing my firearm in the general direction of the berm.... it is my right to be here, and there is nothing you can do about it" (which ranks pretty high on the list of 'how to get the range staff to love and pamper you'). Then the shooter must have thought about it and decided to pack up and move on. Anyway, we talked about this one, and agreed that under the current rules, the shooter was correct (unless we wanted to use section 10.4, which I'm not so sure was'nt deserved). Of course, placement of the safety areas were not ideal, but I do believe it was the best available to the range. This actually happened at the Race Gun Nats last year. Any suggestions on this? Any new changes coming to address stuff like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 BDH, you bring up a good question. my thoughts are as follows: 1) the safety area should be located where this type of situation should never happen. the safety area should have been on the side of the berm not on the end |__|x 2) 180 safety rules apply everywhere on the range including the safety area 3) the cro has complete control over safety on the stage. if competitor failed to comply with the ro, then the warnings of unsportsmen like conduct should be enforced. just my thoughts lynn jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I dunno, this whole safe/unsafe loaded/unloaded thing seems like a crock to me. We spend an inordinate amount of time clearing guns and worrying about what might happen... in this instance, I think the RO was out of line. The shooter was in a safe area, the ONLY place we're allowed to handle our guns. If he had a problem with where the safe area was placed, methinks he shoulda talked to the RM, not the shooter. This is leaning towards, for me at least, that range nazi, mess with the shooter mentality. Of course, hindsight is always 20/20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Well lemme tell you what I think. First off. the safety area was poorly located and I think we would all agree on that. However, competitors are obliged to conduct themselves appropriately until the unsafe condition can be corrected. I think the RO should have shut the safe area down on the spot and contacted the RM. The RO was not out of line to ask the competitor to stop pointing his pistol at other people. In my view, anyone who would continue to piont a firearm at people after being asked not to do so is the ultimate jackass and there can be no excuse for such behavior. I don't know about the Nationals, but at our club if you point a firearm at another person after being instructed not to do so you will be banned from the range and escorted off of the premises. I don't think we would even consult the IPSC rulebook because your actions would violate the very fundamentals of common sense and firearms safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I agree with Ron. It does not matter where you are on the range. Pointing a gun in the direction of other people is unsafe and foolish. The fault falls on both the competitor pointing his/her gun at someone and the range that allowed such a poor "safe area" design. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Lynn & Ron, you've both graduated with honours. 1) The safety area was poorly located. 2) The competitor should have had more sense, and pointing a gun at another person is unforgiveable. Moreover, the Four Rules of Gun Safety need to be tattooed on the inside of his eyelids, with "Do not point a gun at anything you do not want to shoot" in bold uppercase. 3) After being warned nicely by an RO to cease and desist, the competitor should have been disqualifed under Section 10.4. for his second offence. The RO erred by giving a second warning. We have zero tolerance for such irresponsible behaviour. 4) If the competitor doesn't like our safety rules, he should take up another sport. We don't need idiots like that in IPSC. For the record, a competitor at World Shoot XIII was immediately disqualified, without warning, for a similar infraction. He used what he "thought" was a safety area (there was a table but no berm) to handle his gun but, while doing so, he pointed his gun at a squad of competitors waiting to shoot. The competitor appealed to arbitration but his appeal was unanimously dismissed. As a side issue, after the decision was handed down, the competitor offered to stick around to assist with the match. He made a mistake, he had his "day in court" and he accepted the verdict graciously and like a true sportsman. It was the first time I had met him but his stock went up 100 points in my book. As to the rules, I think the existing rule is very clear: "2.4.1 Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas as stated below provided they remain within the boundaries of the Safety Area and the firearm is pointed in a safe direction. Violations may be subject to match disqualification ( See 10.3.14)". If anybody thinks "in a safe direction" includes "at other people", please leave IPSC. Now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Amen Brother Vince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted April 30, 2003 Author Share Posted April 30, 2003 Just to clarify...... there is no doubt that this safety area was not in an ideal location. Lynn suggested placement along the side of the berm, which would have been ideal (and in fact, was where some of the other safety areas were located). Unfortunately, this was between two stages that were in slightly shorter pits, and were deep stages. In other words, they really couldn't stick it on the side in this case. Actually, they kind of dug it into the end of the berm, so to actually point at the staff or competitors, you probably had to be facing at least 30 or maybe even 45 degrees off the line of the berm. Should they just have canned this safe area? From what I remember, I think they could have gotten away with that, but there were plenty of shooters using the safe areas because of the wind and dust. Also, I can't remember, but I do think that there were more than one of the safety areas set up like this, so if they pulled all of them, there 'may' have been an issue about number of, and distance to, safety areas. VINCE: As to the rules, I think the existing rule is very clear:"2.4.1 Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas as stated below provided they remain within the boundaries of the Safety Area and the firearm is pointed in a safe direction. Violations may be subject to match disqualification ( See 10.3.14)". If anybody thinks "in a safe direction" includes "at other people", please leave IPSC. Now. 1) What are the boundaries of the safety area? 2) I agree whole-heartedly. I think this shooter was way out of line, and completely unreasonible with the RO. 3) "but the gun was unloaded!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Brian, See my reply in the "DQ or not" thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted April 30, 2003 Author Share Posted April 30, 2003 VP, got it. We were out sync. I'm back with ya. BDH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 More than one issue here... - The safe area wasn't very safe. So, in fact, it was an unsafe area. - The gun was, also, pointed in an unsafe direction. Now...as for the dusty range... Got Glock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Got Glock! Bringing Glocks ---- maybe three of them. Good to have a spare to loan for when someone's highly tuned racegun chokes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 1, 2003 Author Share Posted May 1, 2003 Got Glock! Bringing Glocks ---- maybe three of them. Good to have a spare to loan for when someone's highly tuned racegun chokes... Nik, unfortunately my 'highly tuned racegun' NEVER chokes..... it's always operator error, and I end up with no excuse....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Brian, I'd bring spare operators if I could it afford it too..... Hmmmm, here's a whacko idea for a match ---- what if you could pick a GM to be the Designated (Hitter) Shooter for you an a stage..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 RO or not I would have told him not to point his gun at me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 I once saw a sign posted at a range which had the "local" version of the 4 rules (which numbered closer to 10 including "do not shoot at the pretty yellow planes (crop dusters) flying overhead". One of the rules was something like: "If you point a gun at someone, do not be surprised if they point one back at you." Everyone together now: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 I think this range sign is kinda cool ........ and when it comes to range safety, these guys definitely need help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Reminds me of the Delta Force training area on Fort Bragg. Having said that, allow me to seemingly digress for a minute. There's a chain link fence around the entire circumference of Fort Lewis, Washington. Years ago the post commander - who by all accounts was more than a little whacko - just had to have a fence around his post. God knows how many tens of thousands of taxpayer dollars were spent on this ridiculous project, but there it is to this day. And aside from a few Ranger bats and the 1st Special Forces Group - all of which have their own fences around their units - there's not really anything too cool to mess with at Fort Lewis. Compare that to Fort Bragg, North Carolina. It's got the 5th and 7th Special Forces Groups, most of the Ranges on the planet, XVIII Airborne Corps Headquarters, the 82nd Airborne division, etc. And the only thing that lets you know you've entered Fort Bragg at all is the big billboard that says, "You are now entering Fort Bragg, Home of the Airborne. STRAC (Strong, Tough, Ready And Capable." No sillyass fence. Anywhere they don't want you to be on Fort Bragg, it's easy to figure out that's the case. Like the Delta Force training area. The subtle clue is the 20 foot tall chain link fence, electrified with a killing charge, strung with concertina wire along the top, with signs every 10 feet that say, "Traspassers Will Be Shot On Sight." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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