Dq Or Not?

[THS]

I'm at a match this weekend and a shooter joins our squad about halfway through the first stage. He asks where the safe area is and I saw him go over there to do some draws and reloads.

He ends up being the last shooter and as he's in the box, I'm holding the clipboard, and some others are taping the paper, I see he has a magazine in the gun. I asked him how he could have a mag inserted and all he does is pop the release and look at it to see if there are any bullets in it. (none there) Never says anything to the RO when they return from downrange.

What should happen? Club match vs. Sectional?

Tom

[Shooter Grrl]

There is no rule that says you can't have a mag in your gun. Shooter did nothing wrong. No DQ.

[Vince Pinto]

THS,

No DQ because the gun was not loaded (see Rule 10.3.15). However in such cases, the correct procedure when you notice the magazine is:

1) Prevent the competitor from touching his gun or mag while people are downrange;

2) Once the range is clear, order him to "Unload and show clear" because you have good reason to check the chamber too.

3) If the gun is clear, order him to "GC, HD, Holster" then give him a stern warning, which should be recorded on his score sheet. You should also notify the Range Master.

4) However if the gun was loaded (see Rule 10.3.15), do the same as above but then DQ him.

And the above applies to all level matches.

[ErikW]

There is no rule that says you can't have a mag in your gun.

You're gonna flunk that RO test!

What Vince said.

[Shooter Grrl]

Tell me the rule number please....

[ErikW]

8.3.7.2, which really is only about unloading when finished with a course of fire.

You might be right. The instructor covered this at the class, mentioning shooters trying to keep dust out of their guns.

[PhilTerry]

DQ!

We play a dangerous game, running around with loaded guns.

The only reason we prevent injuries (or worse) is by strict enforcement of the rules - one of which is no magazine in gun - unloaded or not - before the Load and Make Ready.

[ErikW]

Let's say you've got to cite the rule number on the scoresheet after you radio the Range Master to tell him you're ending this poor schmuck's year by DQing him from the Nationals or World Shoot.

What's it gonna be, Phil?

[Vince Pinto]

Allow me to clarify.

Kath is quite correct that there's no rule specifically disallowing a competitor from having an unloaded magazine in his gun while walking around, however it's a practice we do not tolerate for reasons which should be obvious.

If a competitor is seen with a magazine inserted, he must be cleared by a Range Officer in the manner which I suggested in my first post above, and the incident is recorded on his scoresheet.

However if the same competitor is later found in the same condition in the same match, then Section 10.4 comes into play and he will get a match DQ.

In other words, two strikes, you're out.

[mcoliver]

Hmmm, I thought the Safe Area is for guns only, no handling of magazines loaded or unloaded. Never did look it up if such was covered in the rule book.

[BDH]

However if the same competitor is later found in the same condition in the same match, then Section 10.4 comes into play and he will get a match DQ.

VP, you burst my bubble!! I was actually going to post this, and there you go..... beating me to the punch again!

[Flexmoney]

Well...

First you are going to give a shooter static for breaking a rule that doesn't exist...

Then...you are going to "label" the shooter as a trouble maker...

Then...you would DQ the shooter under the guise of unsportsmanlike conduct???

(Before you come back that this is a pertaining to safety issue...if so, why isn't it a rule? The rule is pretty well defined as to what constitutes a loaded gun. 10.3.15)

If there is some other rule that I am missing let me know. but if you are going to use the unsportsmanlike conduct rule as a 'failure to do right' then pack a lunch.

[Jon Merricks]

I glad I'm not the only person trying to figure out why you would warn some body about not breaking the rules. I am also quite shocked at Vince's answer. I would have thought that if IPSC had such strong feelings about this matter it would surely be covered in the rules.

[Vince Pinto]

OK guys, here's the thing.

We have a number of protocols in IPSC and one of them is that when you're walking around with a holstered gun, the magazine well must be empty. However judging by the posts above, a protocol is insufficient and a rule is necessary.

No problem. It's my job to write rules, and I'll write one covering this issue for the next rulebook. I promise.

In fact, the more I think about it, we probably need many additional rules to cover the myriad of other issues which are not specifically addressed in the rulebook now. Some items which immediately spring to mind are:

1) Limiting walkthroughs to 5 minutes per squad (right now, the RO decides how much time he'll give the squad, but there's no rule allowing him to impose a time limit. In fact, there's no rule requiring that walkthroughs be given at all);

2) Limiting the demonstration of swingers to a maximum of one pass only per squad (right now, the RO decides how many times he'll demonstrate swingers, but there's no rule allowing him to impose a limit nor is there a rule requiring that they be demonstrated at all);

3) Limiting a competitor's attempt at a COF to a maximum of, say, 10 seconds per round (right now, a competitor can just sit on the range floor for 8 hours reading a book after the beep and there's no rule to stop him - this would tend to screw up the match schedule);

4) The "Show Must Go On" rule (there's no rule now allowing a Range Master to suspend a match due to really bad weather - you just have to shoot much more slowly and carefully);

5) The "Stay Within The Shooting Bay" rule (right now, after the beep, there's no rule prohibiting a competitor from simply walking away from the shooting bay to buy a drink in the clubhouse while he's got a loaded gun in his holster).

Damn. I better get to work (as soon as I pack my lunch).

[Flexmoney]

In the case of the empty mag in the gun... 10.3.15 clearly defines that this is not a safety infraction.

(Actually, it defines what a loaded gun is. An empty mag in the gun doesn't qualify under this rule.)

What I really take exception to is the use of unsportsmanlike conduct as a 'failure to do right' catch-all. That is just flat out wrong, wrong, wrong. (In my opinion.)

We have a mature rule book in IPSC/USPSA. We shouldn't have to get too creative when it comes to enforcement.

[Loves2Shoot]

What about "cold" ranges? Violation of a stated range rule should be considered.

[SmittyFL]

RE: mcoliver's comment.

Are empty mags allowed at the safe area? I thought they were.

For example if you wanted to practice reloads before the shoot off or even before a stage. If you don't have any ammo on you, can you practice with empty mags????

[Loves2Shoot]

They are not disallowed unless it is specifically stated as a range rule. Anyway that is the way I understand it. You might be better off to buy one of those weighted safety mags for safety table practice.

[Wildman]

Vince, I’m with you on this one. If a competitor has been cautioned once to desist from a certain behavior, and persists, send them home. Yes, you can handle unloaded mags in the safe area. No, you can not handle ammo or dummy rounds. Makes practicing reloads in the safe area hard on revolver shooters, but revolver shooting is hard anyway.

Hold off on the additional rules, and insert some comments about using common sense.

[Ron Ankeny]

I should keep my mouth shut, but I am with Flexmoney on this one. Why would you give someone a "stern" warning and possible DQ for doing something that is not a rules violation? Wouldn't a better approach be to inform the competitor that you would prefer that they leave the magazine out of the pistol instead of getting into a pissing match by chewing his/her butt? In my experience, an RO is better off treating shooters with dignity and respect than... well never mind. Argh...

[Steve Anderson]

The thing is...if we define a gun with an empty mag as loaded, we can no longer allow the handling of empty mags in the safe area.

I have been scolded at every range in Ohio for practicing mag changes in the safe area. I ask what other uspsa rules will be ignored at the match as politely as possible.

Add me to the "it's either a rule or it ain't" crowd.

I do sympathize with those not wanting to see mags in guns all over the range.

SA

[BDH]

[in fact, there's no rule requiring that walkthroughs be given at all);

Vince, hey what about 3.2.2??

The range official in charge of a course of fire shall read out the written stage briefing verbatim to each squad. Written stage briefing shall provide the following mimimum information to competitors:

• Stage Number:
  
• Scoring Method:
  
• Targets (type and number):
  
• Minimum number of rounds:
  
• Start position:
  
• Time starts: audible or visual signal
  
• Time stops on the last shot
  
• Penaties: Per the current edition IPSC rulebook
  
• Procedure:
  

That seems to cover it (not the time issue, but the walkthru), unless you view the 'Stage Briefing' and the 'Walkthru' as independent events. I guess to your point 3.2.2 does not specifically say that we have to let the squad go look at or 'walkthru' the stage. Is that what you are saying? I guess I've always viewed the briefing and the walkthru kind of as really one event....

[BDH]

What I really take exception to is the use of unsportsmanlike conduct as a 'failure to do right' catch-all.  That is just flat out wrong, wrong, wrong.  (In my opinion.)

Kyle, don't 'get yer knickers all tied in a knot' over this! I don't think that anyone ever wants to have to DQ someone under 10.4 (of course, no one I know wants to DQ anyone period, but that is a different issue). My take on this is that while 10.4 DQ's are rare, we need this in place.

It does cover the odd situation like this one. Remember, the primary job of the range staff is safety, so even though the gun was not truely loaded, it certainly appears loaded which causes a problem. Okay, we clear the gun and politely ask the shooter not to do that again. Now if he (she) does this again, they are going directly against the RO's instructions and should face the consequences (10.4.2). However, since I would guess that 99% of the time that this happens, it is just a simple mistake or oversight, the second occurance actually never happens.

FYI.... the ONLY real time that I ever personally saw someone 'presented' with the option of a 10.4 DQ was at one of the Area matches last year. It was the proper call for the circumstances, and the only rule that could have been applied.

Since this is so rare, I would hate to see a new rule that says something like 'empty mag in gun while not under direct RO supervision, is a match DQ', because I hate to see people get penalized for what in most cases will be a simple 'brain fart'.

VP, if you are going to write a rule to DQ for an empty mag in the well, then write another one for having the trigger cocked back (which I view as 'similar' to this one, and unless I'm mistaken, I don't believe it is covered either).

[Singlestack]

VP, if you are going to write a rule to DQ for an empty mag in the well, then write another one for having the trigger cocked back (which I view as 'similar' to this one, and unless I'm mistaken, I don't believe it is covered either).

I've got to assume that you ment "hammer" since you can't see the trigger....

[Flexmoney]

BDH,

My take on this is that while 10.4 DQ's are rare, we need this in place.

I certainly never said anything about getting rid of any of the 10.4 rules.

It does cover the odd situation like this one.

I disagree. 10.4.2 says, "...pertaining to safety or competitive issues...".

If this was truely a safety issue, then it would be covered elsewhere. 10.3.15 defines what a loaded gun is.

This isn't a "safety issue", in my opinion. I certainly don't see it as a situation where the RO needs to get heavy-handed. No reason to make a mountain out of a mole-hill.