Breaking the Rules - Carrying Hot....

[gunsablazin]

I have shot IDPA with certain stages run as a Hot range. I don't see it a safety issue, but it does not really save any time, and for me personally the LAMR process is part of my mental prep to shoot. At the clubs I shoot with locally no carry guns are allowed to be worn during the match, which is fine with me, at the range I feel safely among my friends who are the "good guys", what would you need a carry gun for? As someone else posted, in the highly unlikely event you needed a weapon you could simply load the one you're wearing. I needed a weapon once while setting up for a local match, I used a piece of 4X4 to kill a copperhead, did a fine job of it to and made very little noise.

Robin

[Carmoney]

There's no place in the world where a person is safer from criminal attack than an organized shooting competition on U.S. soil.

There may be some individuals who have very specific circumstances that justify being armed 24/7. Those individuals will go about all their activities armed 24/7 and nobody will be the wiser, because their defense guns are well concealed.

Those who wander around a shooting range with an obvious hot gun are simply trying to draw attention to themselves: "Look at me. I'm special. Look--I'm cocked and locked, see? See what a dark and deadly tactician I am?"

Loaded guns don't make me nervous at all. But strange rangers--people who go out of their way to display their loaded guns to others--do tend to make me uneasy.

[Ed K]

Have you actually taken the shooter aside and nicely asked about the CCW/hot gun issue? Do you have other LEO's shooting with you?

If so, ask one of them to take the shooter aside and explain USPSA range etiquette to him/her.

As for the RO's that ignore the situation, THAT should be dealt with fast. Take it to the CRO or MD. If it persists, a little note to Amidon is in order. Who knows what other rules are being ignored. NROI does not take kindly to this.

[ExtremeShot]

++1!

There's no place in the world where a person is safer from criminal attack than an organized shooting competition on U.S. soil.

There may be some individuals who have very specific circumstances that justify being armed 24/7. Those individuals will go about all their activities armed 24/7 and nobody will be the wiser, because their defense guns are well concealed.

Those who wander around a shooting range with an obvious hot gun are simply trying to draw attention to themselves: "Look at me. I'm special. Look--I'm cocked and locked, see? See what a dark and deadly tactician I am?"

Loaded guns don't make me nervous at all. But strange rangers--people who go out of their way to display their loaded guns to others--do tend to make me uneasy.

[Skizeks]

Even if you one argues that 10.5.13 allows the RO to let the guy carry, the machanics don't work.

1) If he carries his second gun during the course of fire, DQ.

2) If he uses the same gun as he is shooting concealed, then he has to load it after the Unload and show clear. If he does that where does he do it? Anywhere but the safe table is a DQ for handling the gun and at the safe table is a DQ for handling the ammo.

3) If he takes off his second gun for the stage, where does he put it on? At the safe table he is handling a loaded gun, and anywhere else he is just handling the gun.

The only possible scenario I see is that after Range is Clear, the RO calls it hot again and allows him to reload his gun and holster it, but that only works if he is using the same gun for both the shooting and the hot carrying.

5.7.5 under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of fire in the possession of a loaded handgun

[Vlad]

Yup, 5.7.5 applies to a course of fire. However after range is clear, the RO could call the range hot again and have him load his gun. Its absurd, but it may satify the wording of that rule. Still, I think the book just simply doesn't allow for it.

[Skywalker]

Guys, what part of 5.2.1 is unclear?

5.2.1 Carry and Storage - Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1).

Edited December 16, 2007 by Skywalker

[Vlad]

I'm with you Luca, but the devils advocate in me wants to say that if the RO gave him a direct command to load his gun one could argue that its ok. I know it is not.

[Skywalker]

Vlad,

it is my understanding that "Under the supervision" and "direct command" mean the RO shall ALL THE TIME closely monitor the competitor with a loaded gun, not only when he loads, thus the competitor is not allowed to wander through the range with a loaded gun "just because the RO said so!" ...

Moreover, I guess a RO who allows a competitor to load his gun, and then leave the bay being no longer under his control, shuld be sent directly to NROI with a colourful note ...

[richardschennberg]

If someone had witnesses and words the complaint correctly, this deliberate violation of a major safety rule could possibly result in the expulsion from USPSA of the shooter carrying hot and of the match director (MD).

The other problem I see is that if you allow one violation of a major safety rule, then it is likely that other safety rules will be violated.

I also agree with other posters that allowing any safety violation will scare people away.

Richard

[ExtremeShot]

UPDATE: I talked with one of the ROs at the subject club last night. He confirmed that they allow cops, sheriffs, etc. to carry their duty gun HOT in addition to their competition gun on the range, during a match.

If they are willing to break two safety rules (carrying a hot gun and carrying a second gun), I'm wondering what other rules are they breaking. I won't be shooting there anymore.

DM

[Flexmoney]

Drop a note to your Section Coordinator...then Area Director...and NROI.

[ExtremeShot]

Drop a note to your Section Coordinator...then Area Director...and NROI.

I agree, however, I think it should be my buddy who calls since it's his club.

I have one more piece of information to add to the story.....

It turns out that my buddy caught the cop pulling his hot duty gun out during the match and was showing it to someone!!! Can you believe this? ...this is obviously why we have the cold range rules. COP + GUN does not equal SAFE!

DM

[Skywalker]

What Flex said.

If your buddy witnessed a plain (and should I say gross) violation of the safety rules from a club affiliated to USPSA, he should be reporting it to headquarters.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Skywalker

[ExtremeShot]

We've seen the rules quoted above and they are clear to me. However, for those that still think it's OK for LEOs to carry hot and/or carry 2 guns on the range, here is Mr. Amidon's response:

Email from John Amidon:

The rules covered on the Enos forum [he's talking about this thread] pretty much dictates that USPSA matches are cold ranges. Safety is our primary concern and should be followed to the T. If you find any certified RO's allowing unsafe acts or deliberate violation of the rules, there is an RO Disciplinary procedure listed on the nroi.org web site. This has to be done during the match and by written paper work, no emails allowed.

The rules do not state cold range as such, but the club manual that each affiliated club gets, does indicate that our matches are on cold ranges. See page 6 of the Resources section of the IV edition club manual. This can be viewed on the uspsa.org site under the members section.

John Amidon

VP USPSA

Director NROI

[G-ManBart]

I have one more piece of information to add to the story.....

It turns out that my buddy caught the cop pulling his hot duty gun out during the match and was showing it to someone!!! Can you believe this? ...this is obviously why we have the cold range rules. COP + GUN does not equal SAFE!

DM

Wow....that's crazy. I've said it before, I'll say it again....there is absolutely no reason for allowing anyone to carry a hot gun during a USPSA match. Some of the worst gun handling I've seen has been from fellow LEOs. In fact, I have routinely seen bad gun handling that you would never, ever see at a USPSA match....ask me where I feel safer

[Gary Johnson]

Range officers do not have authority to 'order' or permit rule violations.

If an RO tells someone to load a gun other than during a course of fire, the order must be ignored.

[Joe4d]

I am reminded of the saying,, "The only thing required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" It doesnt matter if it was your club or not if they are using USPSA name and you are a USPSA member you have not only a right but a responsibility to report this to Area/ HQ.

[glock-cop]

This bothers me greatly. I am a police officer and my departments firearms instructer. I have never even thought about asking to carry "hot" at a match or carry a 2nd gun. I carry a back-up gun on duty, but not at the matches. When I run the department shoots I run a cold range and load them as the come to the line. Most of the fulltime guys I know consider their guns a tool and a bother to have on. Some of the reserve/aux. guys I know carry and show off their guns more. When you first get that badge and ID and can carry it's a thrill. After a while it wears off and becomes routine. You even forget it's there. Sometimes people forget that we cops are mostly normal people and even we have a few yahoo's among us. There have been a few training accidents where the person in charge forgot to have all "real" guns checked at the door.

[richardschennberg]

No one needs a hot gun at an USPSA match where the LE and 50 potential instant deputies are wearing a gun and several loaded magazines.

[Alaskapopo]

This bothers me greatly. I am a police officer and my departments firearms instructer. I have never even thought about asking to carry "hot" at a match or carry a 2nd gun. I carry a back-up gun on duty, but not at the matches. When I run the department shoots I run a cold range and load them as the come to the line. Most of the fulltime guys I know consider their guns a tool and a bother to have on. Some of the reserve/aux. guys I know carry and show off their guns more. When you first get that badge and ID and can carry it's a thrill. After a while it wears off and becomes routine. You even forget it's there. Sometimes people forget that we cops are mostly normal people and even we have a few yahoo's among us. There have been a few training accidents where the person in charge forgot to have all "real" guns checked at the door.

I am also an officer and my departments firearms instructor. I totally disagree with a cold range. How are your trainings conducted out of the class room at your department. I bet its on a hot range. All of ours are hot except when there is a reason to be cold (dry practice training). All guns are always loaded that is the first rule of gun safety. If we can't trust people to walk around with loaded guns at the match they should not be at the match. The cold range system of IDPA and USPSA is one of my largest pet peeves with these sports. Just make the rules so that no one can handle their firearm when not on the firing line. I tolerate this rule because I enjoy shooting both sports. But I hate it.

Pat

Edited January 16, 2008 by Alaskapopo

[JThompson]

This bothers me greatly. I am a police officer and my departments firearms instructer. I have never even thought about asking to carry "hot" at a match or carry a 2nd gun. I carry a back-up gun on duty, but not at the matches. When I run the department shoots I run a cold range and load them as the come to the line. Most of the fulltime guys I know consider their guns a tool and a bother to have on. Some of the reserve/aux. guys I know carry and show off their guns more. When you first get that badge and ID and can carry it's a thrill. After a while it wears off and becomes routine. You even forget it's there. Sometimes people forget that we cops are mostly normal people and even we have a few yahoo's among us. There have been a few training accidents where the person in charge forgot to have all "real" guns checked at the door.

I am also an officer and my departments firearms instructor. I totally disagree with a cold range. How are your trainings conducted out of the class room at your department. I bet its on a hot range. All of ours are hot except when there is a reason to be cold (dry practice training). All guns are always loaded that is the first rule of gun safety. If we can't trust people to walk around with loaded guns at the match they should not be at the match. The cold range system of IDPA and USPSA is one of my largest pet peeves with these sports. Just make the rules so that no one can handle their firearm when not on the firing line. I tolerate this rule because I enjoy shooting both sports. But I hate it.

Pat

Here's one of the reasons we are cold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IZlcbJwfP4

[Alaskapopo]

This bothers me greatly. I am a police officer and my departments firearms instructer. I have never even thought about asking to carry "hot" at a match or carry a 2nd gun. I carry a back-up gun on duty, but not at the matches. When I run the department shoots I run a cold range and load them as the come to the line. Most of the fulltime guys I know consider their guns a tool and a bother to have on. Some of the reserve/aux. guys I know carry and show off their guns more. When you first get that badge and ID and can carry it's a thrill. After a while it wears off and becomes routine. You even forget it's there. Sometimes people forget that we cops are mostly normal people and even we have a few yahoo's among us. There have been a few training accidents where the person in charge forgot to have all "real" guns checked at the door.

I am also an officer and my departments firearms instructor. I totally disagree with a cold range. How are your trainings conducted out of the class room at your department. I bet its on a hot range. All of ours are hot except when there is a reason to be cold (dry practice training). All guns are always loaded that is the first rule of gun safety. If we can't trust people to walk around with loaded guns at the match they should not be at the match. The cold range system of IDPA and USPSA is one of my largest pet peeves with these sports. Just make the rules so that no one can handle their firearm when not on the firing line. I tolerate this rule because I enjoy shooting both sports. But I hate it.

Pat

Here's one of the reasons we are cold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IZlcbJwfP4

That video only proves my point he thought he had a cold gun and it was hot. Treat all guns as if they are loaded and that will not happen. (hmm sounds like a safety rule imagine that)

I carry a gun all day for a living but when I show up at a match somehow I am not longer safe. Its kind of insulting. The biggest problem I have with it is it leads to piss poor muscle memory for real life. I can just see some cop who also shoots USPSA unloading and showing clear after shooting a bad guy. There is a presidence for this. In the 1980's there was a shoot out involving several California Highway Patrol Officers. Some of the officers were killed and empty brass was found in their pockets. The reason. The range master had them dump the brass into their hand then put it into their pockets to keep the range clean. Lesson here. You will fight as you train. I don't want any bad habits being instilled into me from a USPSA or IDPA match. That is why I wish they would run a hot range and be more selective about who is allowed to shoot. (required a basic training course before competing in matches).

Pat

Edited January 16, 2008 by Alaskapopo

[JThompson]

This bothers me greatly. I am a police officer and my departments firearms instructer. I have never even thought about asking to carry "hot" at a match or carry a 2nd gun. I carry a back-up gun on duty, but not at the matches. When I run the department shoots I run a cold range and load them as the come to the line. Most of the fulltime guys I know consider their guns a tool and a bother to have on. Some of the reserve/aux. guys I know carry and show off their guns more. When you first get that badge and ID and can carry it's a thrill. After a while it wears off and becomes routine. You even forget it's there. Sometimes people forget that we cops are mostly normal people and even we have a few yahoo's among us. There have been a few training accidents where the person in charge forgot to have all "real" guns checked at the door.

I am also an officer and my departments firearms instructor. I totally disagree with a cold range. How are your trainings conducted out of the class room at your department. I bet its on a hot range. All of ours are hot except when there is a reason to be cold (dry practice training). All guns are always loaded that is the first rule of gun safety. If we can't trust people to walk around with loaded guns at the match they should not be at the match. The cold range system of IDPA and USPSA is one of my largest pet peeves with these sports. Just make the rules so that no one can handle their firearm when not on the firing line. I tolerate this rule because I enjoy shooting both sports. But I hate it.

Pat

Here's one of the reasons we are cold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IZlcbJwfP4

That video only proves my point he thought he had a cold gun and it was hot. Treat all guns as if they are loaded and that will not happen. (hmm sounds like a safety rule imagine that)

Pat

We do and we treat them that way after we have verified them empty... it's an extra step in the safety process. It's also a good thing when people have holsters for open/limited guns that can be knocked out if certain conditions are met. I don't want to argue about the holsters used either... I'm saying that it's safer to have a cold range than a hot one. There are many dif skill levels at matches and it makes most of us more comfy knowing that a certed RO has also checked the gun.

We still handle them only when instructed to do so by the RO or in a safe area... it gives us a little more safety in case of a screw up. Even when people are trained an accident can happen and since we are not defending lives or property we add the extra step.

She knew the gun was loaded and still screwed the pouch.... it happens.

http://www.your-arcade.com/games/10551/acc...-discharge.html

Edited January 16, 2008 by JThompson

[Scott R]

This bothers me greatly. I am a police officer and my departments firearms instructer. I have never even thought about asking to carry "hot" at a match or carry a 2nd gun. I carry a back-up gun on duty, but not at the matches. When I run the department shoots I run a cold range and load them as the come to the line. Most of the fulltime guys I know consider their guns a tool and a bother to have on. Some of the reserve/aux. guys I know carry and show off their guns more. When you first get that badge and ID and can carry it's a thrill. After a while it wears off and becomes routine. You even forget it's there. Sometimes people forget that we cops are mostly normal people and even we have a few yahoo's among us. There have been a few training accidents where the person in charge forgot to have all "real" guns checked at the door.

I am also an officer and my departments firearms instructor. I totally disagree with a cold range. How are your trainings conducted out of the class room at your department. I bet its on a hot range. All of ours are hot except when there is a reason to be cold (dry practice training). All guns are always loaded that is the first rule of gun safety. If we can't trust people to walk around with loaded guns at the match they should not be at the match. The cold range system of IDPA and USPSA is one of my largest pet peeves with these sports. Just make the rules so that no one can handle their firearm when not on the firing line. I tolerate this rule because I enjoy shooting both sports. But I hate it.

Pat

Here's one of the reasons we are cold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IZlcbJwfP4

That video only proves my point he thought he had a cold gun and it was hot. Treat all guns as if they are loaded and that will not happen. (hmm sounds like a safety rule imagine that)

Pat

The only point that video proves is that he is an idiot.

A loaded pistol or even a loaded magazine should have never been included in their display items. Their duty pistols should have stayed hot and holstered.