recardoa Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 I have two Para Ordnance P14-45s. One which I have shot for several years and one which I purchased approximately 4 years ago but hardly ever used. (It must have 10 rounds through the weapon to ensure it's functionality.) It is a P14-45 Limited. I wanted to obtain a P16-9 but wanted to consider converting the P14-45 to a 16-9. The other option is to place the 14-45 on consignment vs flip the funds into a 16-9. Has anyone approached this problem before or can make a reccommendation on the conversion process and it's associated costs. recardoa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 To make a 40 out of one you will need a complete top end. That top end will cost a thousand dollars or somewhere in that ballpark to have it done right by someone that really knows what they are doing. The stock parts aren't worth much, maybe $250 for the full P14 top end if you can sell it. So, that leaves you with the cost of the Para originally, plus a thousand, minus 250. You will have $1300 in a Para 40 cal (if you got a good price on the original P14) that you will be LUCKY to get $900 for if you sell it. $1300 is getting close to a low miles STI/SV platform gun....... So, assume you paid the same $650 for the P-14. Odds are it hasn't decreased a lot in value, and you can sell it for pretty close to what you have in it. That gives you a good head start on a P16. With all new mags, belt, holster, and some ammo you will still be cheaper than the conversion, and have similar re-sale values. That is what I think about what you asked. You didn't ask but I will tell you anyway, instead of doing this now hold tight a bit and put a bit more money together and pick up a good used STI/SV platform gun. Shoot some L10 with your P14, it fits great there. If you are serious and really want to play this game you will end up with an STI/SV platform gun sooner or later. There is a really good reason they are by far the dominant platform in Limited and Open, it is a better mousetrap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Has anyone approached this problem before or can make a recommendation on the conversion process and it's associated costs.recardoa Why yes I have. 7 years ago I wanted to get into USPSA. I didn't have a clue what I wanted. I bought a P-14 even though a friend tried talking me into a P-16. Found out the hard way the the P-14 wasn't very competitive in Limited and sold it to fund a P-16. I lost my ass selling a used gun plus the loss on the consignment fees. The P-16 ran about 95% but puked once a month on me. I got so pissed that I sold that too. I ordered an SV and have had it for 5 years. It's been 100% flawless. I'm sure that a pro could have gotten the P-16 to run right, but I just didn't want to own the gun any more. Skip the conversion as HSMITH noted it's expensive. Save for a tuned STI or a custom built STI/SVI and go tear it up. In a year you'll thank everyone who help you make that decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 I find it interesting that when a stock Para doesn't run, it's a piece of crap. Yet when a stock STI doesn't run, it's a jewel in the rough. After 87K rounds I'm still waiting on my P-16 to jam. I've yet to be beaten by a more expensive gun, just better shooters. My G35 Limited gun is just as reliable, but I only have 24K rounds through it. I have no need for a status symbol or urge to make a gunsmith's car payments. I have sixteen 21+1 mags for my Para and fourteen 20+1 mags for the Glock. None have needed "tuning". Go to Brownells and price out the parts and see if you want to do the conversion or sell the P-14 and buy a P-16. If it does need to go to a smith, then it will have to wait in line behind all the factory 2011s that won't run. The difference is you'll end up paying a lot less money. The negative is you won't be able to join the kool-aid club or consider your gun a status symbol. 2011's can be really good guns and are prettier than most, but a reliable gun accurate enough for the sport doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. No need to drink the 2011 kool-aid unless you just want to. TJ has won just about everything there is to win with a Para. Poor DS is deluded enough to think he might win a National Championship running a Glock against those magical 2011s.....Oh wait.....He already has. Seems like the world champ Open shooter missed the word on that better mousetrap as well. Another someone referred to as TGO has won more matches than God and he has the nerve to run a Springfield. Someone really should clue these guys in that there's a better mousetrap... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 JFD, thank you for that breath of fresh air. i've also been confused by the inexplicable loyalty to malfunctioning 2011s. any gun that won't run is crap no matter whose name is on it. I've also been running paras and have no major complaints. i also built an STI, and though it was nice, i did not like the grip for many reasons - mostly that i was limited on configurations - can't change grips really, just modify the existing one to a shape/texture that was tolerable. I greatly prefer Hogue finger groove grips on all my 1911s - can't put that on 2011 type frame. recardoa, a point of confusion. are you thinking about a 40 caliber or 9mm caliber? P16 is the usual 40 caliber; -9 is the 9mm version. either way you have to swap top ends. i've built several multicaliber 1911s - 45 ACP and 38 Super (9mm Luger/9X23 Win) - and love them. the only limiting factor is the ejector since the ejector for the 45 is different than that for the 40/38/9mm. the 45 ejector is farther from the midline than the 40/38/9mm ejector and the cuts in the respective slides accommodate this. there are at least 3 ways around this. #1 change ejectors when you change top ends (a small job really). #2 have a gunsmith cut the ejector slot in the 45 slide to fit a 40/38/9mm ejector, then just use the 40/38/9mm ejector for both top ends. #3 use a 40/38/9mm ejector and modify it so that it will fit with both a 45 slide and a 40/38/9mm slide. This sorta works and i ran 10,000 or so rounds that way but did run into a few failure to eject with rimless 38 super brass (38 Super Comp) since the medial side of the ejector had to be filed down to fit the 45 slide. good luck. none of these decisions are bad ones - including the 2011. i might come down to preferences and cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 Good point with the guys that are paid to shoot particular guns, and are also at the top of this game regardless of what they shoot. I wonder what they would shoot if they weren't sponsored? I have had 15+ Para's, and have had really good luck with them as far as reliability, accuracy and all of that. Until I started building S_I guns and got to know the difference I was a card carrying Para fan. They aren't anywhere near as durable as an S_I, they will shoot a long time as you know but not even in the same league. Para mags are thin and can get beaten up a lot easier than S_I mags. Para won't carry the resale value of an S_I, they fall like a stone in value compared to an S_I. I still have a couple Para's and will keep them for ever, but I don't have any doubt that there is a better mousetrap. $3500 for a full custom S_I and some mags is chump change when you think about a couple years of shooting matches and practice, especially if you travel and shoot big matches. Gun cost isn't that big a part of the money it takes to play this game when you do the math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 My name is Corey and I'm a para convert. I was lucky enough to have a buddy that is a great gunsmith that was able to tune my 800$ stock P16 limited gun because it wouldn't run factory ammo out of the box. I'm talking FMJ not some hollow points. Now the para is a good gun but either way you go STI, SVI, PARA I personally would have one built from a smith, or find one used that has been worked out. The main reason I went with STI is that the grip is night and day compared to the para, the gun is lighter, and they hold their value. I could not sell my para and ended up actually getting a fair trade out of it but nobody would buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Shot the Todd Jarrett Limited last night - it was a really nice gun. On part w/ STI/SV - maybe...only got to run 50rounds through it, as it belong to a rep. If you like it go for it. I've gone EAA Witness Limited and have been very happy - I'll use the cost diff between it and and STI/SV to get more training in. ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I love my Yugo...! I think it is just as good as a Cadillac and see no reason to get anything different. OK..ok... Just joking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwx40x40 Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I find it interesting that when a stock Para doesn't run, it's a piece of crap. Yet when a stock STI doesn't run, it's a jewel in the rough. After 87K rounds I'm still waiting on my P-16 to jam. I've yet to be beaten by a more expensive gun, just better shooters. My G35 Limited gun is just as reliable, but I only have 24K rounds through it. I have no need for a status symbol or urge to make a gunsmith's car payments. I have sixteen 21+1 mags for my Para and fourteen 20+1 mags for the Glock. None have needed "tuning". Go to Brownells and price out the parts and see if you want to do the conversion or sell the P-14 and buy a P-16. If it does need to go to a smith, then it will have to wait in line behind all the factory 2011s that won't run. The difference is you'll end up paying a lot less money. The negative is you won't be able to join the kool-aid club or consider your gun a status symbol. 2011's can be really good guns and are prettier than most, but a reliable gun accurate enough for the sport doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. No need to drink the 2011 kool-aid unless you just want to. TJ has won just about everything there is to win with a Para. Poor DS is deluded enough to think he might win a National Championship running a Glock against those magical 2011s.....Oh wait.....He already has. Seems like the world champ Open shooter missed the word on that better mousetrap as well. Another someone referred to as TGO has won more matches than God and he has the nerve to run a Springfield. Someone really should clue these guys in that there's a better mousetrap... +1 on the Para. I have been shooting my P-16 for close to 10 years -- NO PROBLEMS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I find it interesting that when a stock Para doesn't run, it's a piece of crap. Yet when a stock STI doesn't run, it's a jewel in the rough. I'm not sure who started the name calling. I reread the thread and didn't see it. I've seen STI's that aren't set up worth a sh!t and are just more expensive guns that won't run. I put $400 into my P16 in after market parts and I still wasn't satisfied with it's performance. I'm glad to see there are some success stories with the Para platform. It's a nice gun, just not for me. As far as dropping names of professionals shooting "stock" guns other than S*I's, it's hardly fair. Dawson Precision has been building all of Jarret's guns. TGO has all of his built by the Springfield custom shop. Both of which are a far cry from what you'll see in the case at a gun shop. I'm sure if I sent my P-16 and the 6 magazines off to Dawson, it would come back just like TJ's gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 How about everybody stepping back and starting over. We have a new member here that asked a specific question...and we find ourselves in a this gun v. that gun debate. - Admin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Sorry for the diversion. My basic thought is that converting one gun isn't likely to be worth it. Sell the "extra" gun and get "something" whether that's a P16 or something else, is another thread. If you convert it, it'll cost you a bunch of money but I guess you'll have a full top end as back-up parts for the other P14-45. ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recardoa Posted November 16, 2007 Author Share Posted November 16, 2007 Folks I appreciate the candor and also the different oppinions. Brother Flexmoney raises a good point. thanks for looking out for a bro and bringing us back to the fold? may I ask you r opinion to my question? recardo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Somebody correct me if I am wrong... The full-sized para used to be marked: - P14-45 (meaning a 14 round gun in 45 caliber) - P16-40 (16 rounds in 40) - P18-9 (18 rounds in 38/9mm) From there, they had models of reduced size/capacity. For example, a P10-45 (I don't know that that is an actual model number, but you get the idea). So, perhaps they had a P16-9, but it isn't what anybody would look for as a competition gun for USPSA. I am guessing we are talking about a single-action gun to be used for Limited division in USPSA? If so, the P16-40 is the best fit from Para. 9mm doesn't make major power factor...which is deemed most important. 40 caliber makes Major, and allows for the maximum capacity while doing so. When mag extensions are added (to the legal length of ~140mm) the P16-40 can hold over 20 rounds. The P14-45 fits well into Limited-10 division (no more than 10 rounds allowed in the mags). It can also be fitted with mag extensions for Limited division, but I believe you are looking at 17-18 rounds there. And, that can be enough...but it's often just enough, and not much extra. I'm curious, why the desire to switch away from the P14-45 ? Ammo costs, perhaps? Buying ammo off the shelf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Local fella asked me to build him a 40 top end to put on his P14 about 3 months ago. Told him no, and then explained the math I outlined in my first post. Told him I would help him out with a purchased P16 if he needed help getting it running, but the conversion was throwing money in the fire. I won't do the work because I don't believe in it, I don't think it is a good move on the shooters part and I don't think it is a good business decision on my part to take a man's money and piss it away for him on a project that won't be worth nearly what he has in it the very second it is complete. People need to be able to trust the people they turn to for help. That help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 (sorry...I was posting slow and didn't get in and back on topic quick enough) Somebody will correct this and add to it as needed... - I think you'd likely need a new slide, because of the differences in the cut on the breech face between the calibers. - You'd need a new barrel. - You'd need a caliber specific extractor. - You may need a different ejector. All of that would need to be properly fit and tuned. I'd probably rather sell one of the guns and buy a P16-40...if I were to go that route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recardoa Posted December 6, 2007 Author Share Posted December 6, 2007 Thank you all for your input. You all have given me plenty of food for thought before jumping into the pool and starting to sink or swim!!! I have decided to post my 14-45 up on the bulletin board at two of the clubs that I shoot at here in VA. It is my plan to find out it there are any takers and plunk the funds down to buy a 18-9!! The tuning aspect is the part that would persuade me from going the other route. I just want it to work the way it was supposed to consistently. Will let you all know how the gun sale goes!! The ads are posted at the NRA HQ in Chantilly and Gilbert's Small Arms Range in Lorton, VA. recardoa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBoyle Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 I still don't understand why a gunsmith wouldn't do the coversion? I have had my P14 for 11 years now and I have just started thinking about converting the top end over. I love the feel of the grip, the trigger I have, the balance of the gun, etc. If I ever do try and get new Topend fitted it would not be on my mind to sell it at all. It would only be to take a gun that I already love and just make it a little more competitive on certain stages. BTW My para still has the factory barrel and slide(Bomars) and has well over 50K rounds through it and will still shoot 2-2.5 inch groups benchrested at 25yds. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 Brian If it costs more to do the top end than to buy a complete new gun........ Perhaps someone of integrity would feel that it would really be doing you a disservice to build you a top end... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 I just sold my last Para this week. Sold it back to the guy who sold it to me, he wanted it for nostalgic reasons.Started out its life as a gunsmith kit,(Back when all you could buy from para was the frame). In its life the original owner had it as a 45, the started shooting open and converted it to 38s. After a couple of years of open, he went back to limited and reconfigured it with the 45 top. Then the 40 craze took over and he took the 45 top of and had a 40 built and set on it. I bought it in 1999 with the 40 top and 6 mags. shot it 1 year and bought an sti for IPSC. Still shot the para in IDPA with the bushing top. The gun was always reliable as long as you followed the rules that the gun required.(It would not run factory 40 ammo)I kept it clean and it ran reliably. Was it a factory gun, no but it saw many different calibres in its life and has always ran well. Mags are a little more problematic with the para, but I look at it as a different maintanence issue. I would not buy a new Para with the power extractor, but would buy the older paras and just put the parts in it that I like and then would shoot it. HSmiths comments about durability are accurate as I have seen a couple of high mileage paras have to go to EGW for frame rewelds because the fram cracks at the dustcover from constant use, but other than that if it works for you, then spend the $ and make it happen as its your cup of tea, and this game we play call shooting is a hole that we throw money in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 Brian, you bring that P14 to me for a 40 top end and I am going to want somewhere around a THOUSAND dollars to put a 40 cal top end on it. Granted, it will be as good as it gets, but..... For the same money you can buy a P16 in good/great condition with 4 or 5 mags, and have me tune it up so it actually runs great with a nice trigger. Your P14 as is is worth $500-700, your P14 with two top ends will be worth $600 to $800 and you will have $1500+ in it. Your P16 with mags, tuning and trigger work will be worth $600-800. Why anyone would convert a Para when the math has been explained is beyond me. With both your P14 as is and your new P16 you have $1500 or so worth of guns, a back-up should you have a problem with either, and a reasonable chance of getting most of the money you put into them back out if you sell. If I put a top end on your P14 you lose a thousand dollars if you decide to sell, have no back up gun, and no re-course. The math doesn't make sense, that is why I have said NO on a couple occasions to putting a new top end on a Para 45. Don't get me wrong, I am NOT opposed to taking profitable work. I AM opposed to taking money to do work that doesn't make sense. People need to be able to TRUST the gunsmith they use, TRUST their judgment in what work is done, TRUST their judgment in what parts are used, and TRUST that the end product justifies the expense incurred. Hopefully the customer understands that I said no because it is in their best interest to do something else. If they don't, well that is fine too, someone else can rob them. I won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBoyle Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 I wasn't trying to offend anybody and I apologize if I did. I now better understand what you meant. I think I will be on the lookout in the near future for a P16 in good to great condition. (what do they go for new anyway?) I have a SV for an Open gun and really like that platform as well and am by no means biased against SVI or STI. I think they are great guns just as I think my Para is. I did not have a Para built for Open because of the dust cover issue(especially when mounts are installed) but I feel that they are just as good as anything else when built for limited. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 (edited) Brian, I didn't take offense at all to your question, and I sincerely apologize if it seems like I did. I type almost as fast as I talk and sometimes I forget that you can't see me or hear my voice inflections when I type. I hope my explanation of the math helped clarify why I don't think it is a good idea. In a Limited gun build I think the S_I platform is a great deal more durable than a Para, and I think the difference is in the metal itself. S_I are machined from heat treated and stress relieved bar stock, and the Para is cast. A casting will always have stresses inherent to the casting, and the metal itself won't be nearly as 'organized' in grain structure so it won't be as strong. A Para will build into a great Limited gun, but realistically they will be pretty sloppy by about 75K rounds of major 40. Rails help a lot, but I wouldn't plan on getting more than 75K, if you get 100K out of a Para based gun you have done extremely well. An S_I platform gun built well will go 100K easily, and probably close to 200K with regular barrel changes. All this is just based on the rails, the thumb safety, slide stop and mag catch holes also take a beating and will eventually cause problems with a Para too. Don't get me wrong, I really like the feel of the Para guns. If my pockets were deep enough I would build my personal Limited and Open guns on Para alloy frames. I prefer the feel, weight, and balance of them. The problem is 50K rounds is about all they will take and 50K might be a little generous, the frames are expensive enough that changing them is too costly. I have built a LOT of them over the years, and shot them extensively. Love the guns, just can't afford to keep running them. EDIT: spelling Edited December 28, 2007 by HSMITH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBoyle Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 HSmith I didn't think you took offense. I was sent an email last night about the post how I shouldn't argue. I re read the posts to see what they were talking about with me or anyone else. Don't you just love the internet and how people could fail to understand each other. Thank You for Letting me know about the difference in the strength of the frames. I always new that the STI/SVIs were stronger but I didn't realize that they would run that much longer than a Para. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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