End of the tube feeders?

[lynn jones]

Sounds as if there is a need for a muti-tube shotgun, just have to rotate the fresh one into place and continue rocking and rolling. Designers!

ya never know what may be in the works

this has already be done by a man in italy. i'll look for the video.

lynn

[jhgtyre]

Sounds as if there is a need for a muti-tube shotgun, just have to rotate the fresh one into place and continue rocking and rolling. Designers!

ya never know what may be in the works

There is already something like that. I think some Italian guys had come up with it. There is a post about it around here somewhere.

-ld

[KentG]

I too have looked VERY CLOSLY at the mag feeds, and still don't see a versatile one.

The shotgun is a versatile firearm; you can shoot flying targets with shot, from tiny BBs to much larger. You can shoot a single projectile that is accurate out past 100 yards. You can shoot 9-15 man-stopping BBs the size of a 9mm projectile in ONE shot... the list goes on.

In our 3gun matches we have seen targets that test the shooters ability to use this versatile firearm. The mag feeds just can't do it...yet!

to say that a select slug stage is unsportsman-like, well, you are just plain WRONG! A select slug stage with flying birds and paper targets that require 00 buck is very common, and NOT designed to screw with the mag feeds. It was designed to test the shooters ammo management abilities ALONG with reloading skills!!! It just shows that the mag feeds are just not up to par because you can't easily shove in a single round (or 2 or 3) to engage a specific target with.

I don't doubt that someday there will be a "perfect" removable mag fed shotgun, it just ain't been invented yet!

jj

I didnt say a select slug drill is not fair. I am refering to deliberatly designing stages to handicap.

Ive seen it done in pistol matches like IDPA making the SS guys do an extra reload. That wasnt always on purpose, it was done by a glock shooter who really didnt think about it, maybe. Ever shot a stage designed by a wheel gun shooter?

I read on a forum somewhere that a shotgun stage was designed going prone shooting thru a low port that forced the mag fed shooter to hold the gun homie style. Im kind of curious to see how this goes in the future. If the Saiga or any new mag fed shotty, starts to gain popularity, and suddenly we see lots more stages designed to require slug drills than in the past. Then again the Saiga my not gain any new shooters but I still think its neater than hell. Since Im not shooting for first place Im going to continue to use it and add new mods as they become availabel.

[Skywalker]

Sounds as if there is a need for a muti-tube shotgun, just have to rotate the fresh one into place and continue rocking and rolling. Designers!

Already done ...

Link to post with attached video.

Link to manufacturer.

[SinistralRifleman]

Give us a slug-shot-slug-shot stage at RM3G next year. I think you'll see a lot of tube fed shooters frustrated too.

I read on a forum somewhere that a shotgun stage was designed going prone shooting thru a low port that forced the mag fed shooter to hold the gun homie style. Im kind of curious to see how this goes in the future. If the Saiga or any new mag fed shotty, starts to gain popularity, and suddenly we see lots more stages designed to require slug drills than in the past. Then again the Saiga my not gain any new shooters but I still think its neater than hell. Since Im not shooting for first place Im going to continue to use it and add new mods as they become availabel.

They've discussed it on here too. In anticipation of this, I always carry five rounders so I can get lower. I should practice my roll over prone with the Saiga just in case too.

[Topmaul]

My son just won our tactical shotgun match with his Saiga 12 no mag well, no last round bolt hold device, no drum, just a 922r Saiga and a bunch of AGP mags. This match was a straight forward aggressiveness pays match 95 shot minimum one stage match. He charged and showed a lot of aggression.

Did I mention he had a lot of jams due to dad buying cheap ammo and he is only 16 years old. If I had gotten our normal ammo he would have won by a lot more.

Edited November 3, 2007 by Topmaul

[Sako92S]

Is the Saiga the only mag feed shotgun? I heard of another one but can't think of it or remember to do a search.

Franchi SPAS 15

Molot VEPR 12

[Carlos]

Just to throw more fuel on the fire.. If Saigas are so great, then why are Mike Voigt, Jerry Miculek, Taran Butler, Bennie Cooley, etc.. still using tube fed guns?

Funny you should mention our president, Voigt & the siaga: it turns out Voigt got spanked in a major match in Bali by a lesser know shooter using a Siaga.

1) Arguably, Voigt is one of the top 3 gunners in the US; you might even call him "top indian."

2) In Bali, the Russian shooters showed up with very well developed Siagas & brakes I had never seen before (think of these as "arrows").

3) I did not recognize the name of the Russian who won. Maybe he's a shotgun "God" and I am just not up to speed on "IPSC Shotgun" as opposed to USPSA 3 gun/multigun. Nevertheless, he won.

Seems like in that instance, it WAS the arrow and NOT the indian that won the match.

As far as magfed guns being "unfair" - consider:

Time was, in the late 70s history of IPSC, that the revolver was not at much of a disadvantage against a 7 or 8 shot 1911. Wouldn't it have seemed unfair to the wheelgunners back then to allow the 1911 shooters to use the newer 8 round mags and start with 9 rounds? Or 10? Or 11? - Weren't there arguments that the 8, 9, and 10 round mags were unfair and should have been relegated to open only?

Think of the Tube Feeders as today's "revolvers" of the shotgun world. Their time has come.

Bring on the mag-fed guns! If the tube-feeders go the way of the revolver in USPSA, so be it. There will, of course, be those who disagree. Heck, many 1911 purists turn up their noses at the "widebody"/2011 guns and they regularly deride the 40 cal in a 1911/2011 (just peruse 1911forum.com sometime & see what I mean).

In any event, [mod: deleted micro-ad. Classifieds, thank you]

Edited November 7, 2007 by shred

[cpty1]

Been following this thread and thought I'd chime in. Just back from the Area 6 3 Gun Championship which had 3 shotgun stages. As noted in another thread on this forum, Dean M. was using a tricked out Saiga at that match. He won the open shotgun aggregate...congrats Dean! He and I were on different squads, so I don't know if he had any issues anywhere where his time could have been faster, but, with mikes and procedurals aside, looking purely at open shotgun posted stage times, here's my critique of that match and tube vs mag:

Euro Technical - Dean and I had basically the same time..25.xx seconds. I had to reload twice, a 6 round, then later a 4 round tek tube on that stage. Saiga would only need one mag. Advantage Saiga IMO.

Change Up - Dean smoked me on that stage. I had to feed one slug into the gun manually at the very end due to a mental error, but that in no way made up for the total time difference between he and I on the stage. Saiga would only need one mag. Advantage Saiga IMO.

Jungle Rumble - don't know here. My time was 4 secs faster, but I suspect Dean may have been trying to avoid the spinning no shoot clays. If so, that would have took a little more time. I just shot the star as if the no shoots weren't there, ignored them, and got on with it. Hit both no shoots by the way but won the stage. Turned out OK ultimately, but may not have been the smartest thing. I loaded one 6 round tube, then an 8 later in the stage. Not sure about advantage here, as I don't know if Dean would have loaded once or twice. Possibly once as I think it was a 21 round stage, assuming he didn't miss.

Dean was kind enough to let me see his gun and it was very light with a great trigger. Didn't seem to me that inserting the mags was that big of a deal with some practice of course. Certainly think it would be as reliable as a tube feeder, as invariably something goes afoul on those even if infrequently. Another advantage to the Saiga is, when modified as his was, you can reload on an open bolt. Only the Browning in the tube feeder line allows this. Again, advantage Saiga. The custom mag release was very easy to access and manipulate. I think course design in some cases benefits the Saiga shooter. There could be some designs however where the opposite is true I suppose but can't think of any at the moment.

If there was any question on my part after seeing the Saiga, would be the longevity and it's ability to go long term. The modified gun is not cheap, but is cheaply made. No getting around the initial parts makeup regardless of how much customization is done. After several thousand rounds, am just wondering if the Saiga will hold up. If it does....hmmm.....

Edited November 9, 2007 by cpty1

[Topmaul]

Comrade,

I have put thousands of rounds thru my Saiga, and it is better now than ever, not one jam all summer and I shoot the crap out of it. Look at the crome lined Saiga barrel.

Yes it will hold up as well or better than the other models out there

[TonyRumore]

Recently a Florida PD Swat team fired a Tromix 8" barreled Saiga 4,850 rounds of double aught buck without a failure. I received the gun back, disassembled the entire gun and inspected it. All still looked great. Though 5,000 shots isn't a lot, you have to consider the more violent gas system operation on such a short barreled gun. I seriously doubt you could ever wear one of these guns out.

Tony

[cpty1]

Thanks for the posts on the higher round count experiences. Does sound like there are Saigas out there that have some fairly significant volume thru them with no problems.

[Neil Beverley]

Funny you should mention our president, Voigt & the siaga: it turns out Voigt got spanked in a major match in Bali by a lesser know shooter using a Siaga.

1) Arguably, Voigt is one of the top 3 gunners in the US; you might even call him "top indian."

2) In Bali, the Russian shooters showed up with very well developed Siagas & brakes I had never seen before (think of these as "arrows").

3) I did not recognize the name of the Russian who won. Maybe he's a shotgun "God" and I am just not up to speed on "IPSC Shotgun" as opposed to USPSA 3 gun/multigun. Nevertheless, he won.

Seems like in that instance, it WAS the arrow and NOT the indian that won the match.

I'm not sure where you got your data from but I've pasted below the top 10 in Open Division from the official match website:

1 100.00 1110.3182 Michael, Voigt USA

2 82.84 919.8053 Evgeny, Efimov RUS

3 79.79 885.9190 Ralph, Arredondo USA

4 78.42 870.6799 Roy, Haryanto INA

5 75.70 840.4699 Graham, Carlin GBR

6 62.84 697.7750 Brian, Bishop NZL

7 62.52 694.1673 Pinyo, Kaewpinyo THA

8 61.90 687.2834 Sergey, Ivanov RUS

9 52.60 584.0323 Tony, Todd NZL

10 49.82 553.2106 Thanapol, Kulchairatana THA

On the other hand I can advise that the Russians are improving like crazy, in all divisions. Indeed the general standard in IPSC Shotgun has seen dramatic improvements over the last 3-4 years.

[richardschennberg]

I'm not sure where you got your data from but I've pasted below the top 10 in Open Division from the official match website:

1 100.00 1110.3182 Michael, Voigt USA

2 82.84 919.8053 Evgeny, Efimov RUS

3 79.79 885.9190 Ralph, Arredondo USA

4 78.42 870.6799 Roy, Haryanto INA

5 75.70 840.4699 Graham, Carlin GBR

6 62.84 697.7750 Brian, Bishop NZL

7 62.52 694.1673 Pinyo, Kaewpinyo THA

8 61.90 687.2834 Sergey, Ivanov RUS

9 52.60 584.0323 Tony, Todd NZL

10 49.82 553.2106 Thanapol, Kulchairatana THA

On the other hand I can advise that the Russians are improving like crazy, in all divisions. Indeed the general standard in IPSC Shotgun has seen dramatic improvements over the last 3-4 years.

I think the original post referred to the shotgun-only scores or who won the most shotgun stages. MV scored high enough on rifle and pistol to still win the Open HOA.

[Neil Beverley]

I think the original post referred to the shotgun-only scores or who won the most shotgun stages. MV scored high enough on rifle and pistol to still win the Open HOA.

The results I posted are for the shotgun match. There was no rifle match and no Tournament. Simply completely separate HG & SG matches. I know Mike won, and won cleanly, I was there.

Carlos was suggesting that even someone with Mike's skill with speedloading tubes still got beaten by one of the Russians with a box mag shotgun. Not so. However, the results next time may not show such a wide gap, if at all.

[bigbrowndog]

Regarding the Area 6 shotgun results, Open hit factors for the match winner are 1)3.38, 2)3.7, 3)3.44 Hit factors for the Standard match winner are 1)3.8, 2)3.55, 3)3.45. According to these the Standard shooter takes 2 of the three stages from the Box magazine guy.

It would seem that the Standard old load with your fingers method is not quite as dead as we are lead to believe??????????????????????????. :rolleyes:

Trapr

[BrianATL]

Regarding the Area 6 shotgun results, Open hit factors for the match winner are 1)3.38, 2)3.7, 3)3.44 Hit factors for the Standard match winner are 1)3.8, 2)3.55, 3)3.45. According to these the Standard shooter takes 2 of the three stages from the Box magazine guy.

It would seem that the Standard old load with your fingers method is not quite as dead as we are lead to believe??????????????????????????. :rolleyes:

Trapr

Edited November 8, 2007 by BrianATL

[Carlos]

I think the original post referred to the shotgun-only scores or who won the most shotgun stages. MV scored high enough on rifle and pistol to still win the Open HOA.

The results I posted are for the shotgun match. There was no rifle match and no Tournament. Simply completely separate HG & SG matches. I know Mike won, and won cleanly, I was there.

Carlos was suggesting that even someone with Mike's skill with speedloading tubes still got beaten by one of the Russians with a box mag shotgun. Not so. However, the results next time may not show such a wide gap, if at all.

Hello again Neil & greetings from here. MUST you be so nit-picky?! Yes, Evgeny, Efimov was the shooter I was refering to & the match was the IPSC Australasian Championship in Bali as featured in a report in Front Sight; March/April 2005, Volume 22, Number 2, pgs. 46-48, 50-51, 71, and yes, Mike finished ahead of Evgeny for the win. Nevertheless, I believe the results speak volumes about the technological advantage the Siaga provides. Roger Madiou featured a couple of photos of the Siaga 12 and discussed it in the article; apparently the same gun was used by all 4 members of the Russian team, Moreover, they were handicapped by having only 8 round magazines (according to the article). Today, US made 10 round magazines are available for this gun.

Best regards,

C.

[Topmaul]

Not sure if it is Kosher to say this but I have agreed to be the moderator for the competitor's corner of the Saiga forum please come on over and check it out.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showforum=62