Glock 9x19 Open

[cpty1]

Since all my limited, lim-10 and production division shooting revolves around the Glock platforms, a local guy asked me to play around with a Glock 9x19 open gun he was building. I haven't shot an open gun in years, but man..I'll have to say I was surprised at what this guy has done. Not only was the gun flat but it was much softer than what I was expecting. I was especially surprised when comparing this Glock side by side to a 38 Super on a Sx platform that he also owned. He had a couple of different comp/barrel variations so some time was spent working out the loads necessary to make major with each. He's now going back to the loading bench to load major ammo in bulk for each variation then it'll be back to the range for more exhaustive shooting sessions and dependability tests. I'll post with the results of these next sessions. If anyone is building, or considering converting one of their current Glocks into an 9x19 open gun, let me know and I'll hook you up with this guy so you can compare notes, etc. My limited gun felt like a horse after shooting that open gun. Probably shouldn't have oughta done that.

[ryucasta]

I have a Glock Open gun that has been built for 9x19 major. The following link will provide more details on it.

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?th...ighlight=amigos

BTW, I'm having the slide lightened further and a new comp is being configured for it also.

[chp5]

very interesting. Chris - please let us know any updates from continued shooting.

Is this John Nagel by chance? I know he's building one also.

[cpty1]

Yes. John would be the guy.

[Flexmoney]

Chris,

I'd like to hear any and all info. I have a G34 Open 9 project setting right here. I am kind of at a stand still with it. I'd like to lighten the slide and add some blow holes. i just can't bring myself to pony up the $$ to set up a mini-mill.

[HANDGUNNER]

I have built several 9x19 open glocks,they are a cheaper way to get into open class than STI/SV and a lot of fun.we will be doing some R&D on a new comp soon and have a new ultra lite slide lighting.Also have

a new economial open package using the 34&35 pistols for shooters on a budget.

[ryucasta]

Tom,

Slide lightning and new comp cant wait to see it in my hands.

Regards,

Raul

[George]

My open 17L in it's new trim. I had been shooting it iron-sight/minor/open/un-comped many, many moons ago. Decided to turn it into a more modern plastic, fantastic blaster recently, and just got it back the other day.

J-Point melted in, and left old front sight on (it actually seems to aid in indexing, and is an in-place backup if dot dies, just center it up). JP trigger (3.5lb). JP magwell. 4 ports in a Bar-Sto 6" 9x21 bbl. Wolff 18-20-22 lb springs (best combo still TBD). Taylor Freelance +10 base pads on original Glock NFML 17 rnd mags (they actually fit 28, and run 100%).

Working with 124gr JHP's (Remington Golden Saber), & Starline 9x21 brass. Tried AA#7 @ up to 8.0gr and I am getting 1250-1270ish (1 very short range session so far). Shoots easy, dot stays centered. I need to shoot it a lot more now.

Looking for some load data before I just start stuffing in a bunch more #7. I have a couple lbs of N350 powder (not sure if it is really suitable), and lots, and lots of AA#7 (yeah, I know it eats barrels), but I am open to any, and all suggestions.

Regards,

[eric nielsen]

George

That gun looks like a lot of fun. I've just started shooting a G35 that the nice ppl in Smyrna GA gave away to 3 of us lucky shooters at the GA State match. It points well for me, which is why I would love to try what you have.

On loads: Bear in mind that what you are shooting is the same as the SHORT 9x21 that many ppl shot in the early 90's, using their P9 or Witness. Look on Jeff Maas's site for 9x21, read all the warnings.

http://home.columbus.rr.com/jmaass/ipscload.htm

I used a P9 for about 6 months, here's my experience. Note: We had to make the old power factor of 175 or higher ---

1. By far the best, safest powder was Winchester 540. Gave the least amount of pressure problems. Now you can only find this (identical) powder sold as Hogdon HS6. (AA7 = HS7 & I think that is too slow-burning.)

2. DO NOT shoot compressed loads for this cartridge, OAL = 1.135. And shoot only 124/125 gr bullets.

3. Vihta Vouri 3N37 works ok, safe. Louder than W540, not as soft.

4. IMR powders: don't even try in 9mm short. I get a bad feeling about AA5 also, but I've never tried it.

5. Viht N350: suckered me in with low noise & less flip. Ended up with stuck cases at an Area match, which started the morning at 55 deg F and ended up at 85 deg F -- when the cases stuck. Which by the way is a HUGE indicator of excessive pressure.

Tell us how it goes for you.

Eric Nielsen

A-28026

[George]

Thanks casp,

I was thinking 540 was gonna be a contender. I had looked up Maas 9x21 loads, and assumed that the P9 data would suffice. I think I will take my friend up on his offer of trading the N350 I have for his big can of WW540.

I will report back once I settle on a spring/load combo, and get some rounds through this baby.

The jury is still out on keeping the iron front sight. So far, it seems to only be a plus, and doesn't get in the way when I don't want to pay attention to it.

Regards,

[cpty1]

I recall from years ago something about 540 being really, really temperature sensitive. Major variations in velocity depending on heat or cold. Just fyi....anyone confirm or deny this?

[GordonB]

IIRC, I you could actually make SAAMI spec'd 9mm loads that made old major with AA#7 using 147's. The load was in one of my Lyman manuals (which I can't find right now).

So if you want to be on the safe side, use 135's or 147's. It think it's a rough rule of thumb that with the same powder, you can get higher PF's at the same pressure levels with heavier bullets than with lighter bullets.

[eric nielsen]

That's a theory. The theory smacks into reality if the bigger bullet takes away too much case capacity. That's why I said stay with 124/125. That was the consensus of the early experimenters: Rob, Voight, Koenig.

Some of those guys found out the hard way.

A big can of W540 is a keeper. W231 and W571 were the temperature-sensitive ones, and also Viht350 (at least in my gun.)

dvc - eric

[ryucasta]

I have made USPSA Major with Hodgdon's Longshot powder and to be frank I prefer it over HS-6. The cartridge has been configured using Montana Gold's 125 grain 357 SIG bullet seated to an OAL of 1.145

[GordonB]

That's a theory. The theory smacks into reality if the bigger bullet takes away too much case capacity. That's why I said stay with 124/125. That was the consensus of the early experimenters: Rob, Voight, Koenig.

Some of those guys found out the hard way. 

Do you have any links or info that support this?

From Maass' 9x21 web page:

http://home.columbus.rr.com/jmaass/documen...ents/hl9x21.pdf

OAL ~1.161"

Powder............Bullet Weight..........PF................Pressure

N350................147.........................181.7...........42800

N350................123.........................171.3...........42800

N350................115.........................176.2...........42800

3N37................147.........................180.4...........42800

3N37................123.........................167.4...........42800

3N37................115.........................176.2...........42800

3N37................100.........................162.1...........42800

From the 9mm Winchester manual:

http://www.winchester.com/pdf/Page25.pdf

Powder............Bullet Weight..........Vel...........PF.................Pressure

WSF.................147 FMJ..................950...........139.65.........32300

WSF.................124 FMJ..................1115.........138.26.........32700

WSF..................124 LRN.................1055.........130.8...........27300

WSF.................115 FMJ...................1195........137.43.........31900

The above sampling illustrates the "rule of thumb" --- with the same powder, you can make higher PF with heavier bullets with the same powder and pressure level.

And like all rule of thumbs, it's not 100%. I am aware of Clays and heavier bullets in .40 is a no-no. That's been well documented. But .40 major and 9mm Open major applications are pretty different. With .40 you tend to use faster powder for less recoil and with Open slower powder tends to be used so the comp can be driven more effectively.

What is the experience with 124/5's by the professionals are you referring to?

[eric nielsen]

I don't have any "documents". If the world ground to a halt every time a document got lost, I think only the lawyers would be happy about it.

The information came from The Blue Press, an interview with Rob Leatham, and from Front Sight, and interview with Mike Voight. Article (with loads and OVERpressures listed) in American Handgunner - they spoke mainly with Matt McLearn. All of these would be from 1990 or 1991. I've spoken with Ron Avery and probably a dozen other (former) P9 shooters on this subject.

I suppose the Big Problem was with 135 grain CP or D&J bullets, which was by far the most common bullet for Super in those days. Those did not make 175-185 factor in the P9 at all well. No 135's in your load manuals on here either. That was the "advice" I meant to give.

DOES seem like a 147 grain would work, but remember that if they are hollowpoints, you have to load a shorter OAL to get 20-something of those in the magazine. Loaded too long, the chamber pressure is less but you won't get more that 6 or 7 into the mag & successfully fed while shooting. Doubt that the Winchester people were pressure testing with a loaded-up P9 or Glock.

It's your gun (or should I say George's gun), if you blow it up Glock will replace it for about $300. Flesh wounds heal in a few weeks, your mileage may vary. It's good to check for proper headspacing and maybe .010" of freebore. Freebore helps out chamber pressure more than anything: the bullet's ability to travel some before crunching into the barrel's rifling. Out.

dvc - eric

[George]

I see no real problems getting 165-170 pf with my 17L using a 150gr LSWC that I already have 5-6k of. I have already shot this gun major (175pf) back in 89-90 with no porting. I used 8.3 AA#7 @ 1.150" OAL under the same 150gr LSWC and got 1190-1200 easily (it was a real handfull though, and I didn't shoot it major for very long).

Yeah, caspian28r, headspace is indeed fine in my Bar-Sto. But you are right, I will have to check land contact vs OAL with the 124 gr JHP's before I start pushing them to the limit here. I am certain that that is not an issue with the 150gr LSWC'rs as they load with their shoulder flush with the case mouth @ 1.145" OAL. This makes sure that they jump quite a bit, but they are still very accurate in this barrel.

With the ported barrel, I have decided to be cautious, and am going to work my way up very carefully here. I will probably stick with AA#7 for my 150gr load because I have a poop load of it. For the 124 gr load I want to work up, I think I will follow the P9 data, and go with the WW540 I can get from my buddy (8lbs), and switch to HS6 when I run out of it.

OAL is going to be as long as it can be and still feed from the mags reliably. At the moment 1.140-1.145 still has good clearance in the mags. I figure I can load a tad longer and still get good functioning. Once again, another thing to test.

Right now I am shooting 135pf loads with the 150gr LSWC, and 150+pf loads with the 124gr JHP. All of my 9x21 brass is loaded up with these recipes at the moment, so I am burning it off to function the gun, and recover the brass.

300+ rounds today, and functioning was flawless with the mags loaded to capacity (27). Pointability, and dot acquisition were outstanding. I have decided that the old iron front sight is definitely going to stay on because it really aids quick line-up on long shots. In fact, 50 yard US poppers are almost a hose fest with this gun. The 150pf loads actually started to get some gas action at the barrel ports, and dot rise was noticeably less than with the lower pf loads (I am going to have to get used to way the dot is visible during recoil because of the sight moving with the slide).

Now to sort out a load at 167-168pf that gets me some gas action at the ports, and I think I've got myself a great platform for my pistol shooting style. All in all, I am very pleased with the gun. John Paul @ JP Enterprises has once again delivered me another very nice competition firearm.

BTW. I just got my full house open class 11-87 back from him, and it rocks big time.

Regards,

[eric nielsen]

Cool.

I want one now, too! Even if just for Friday Nite Funshoots.

Do you also own a full-out 1911 racegun that you can compare it to? I'm curious about the dot visibility, & what it looks like during recoil, compared to say... a C-More & a 5port comp.

Its weird but it seems that longer the freebore, the better the accuracy. A revolver shooter might know why; scratching my head on that one.

dvc - eric

[George]

Hey casp,

It's been a little over a year since I have shot my "souper". It's an early comp gun (built in 1990) with an "archaic" two port comp, but it does have a C-more on it. It doesn't shoot as flat as a more modern comp design, but it did shoot well enough with a 168pf, 124gr load. The dot bounced around in a figure 8, but was always sharp. The 17L with the J-point seems to bobble the dot a bit less (with the 150pf, 124gr load), but the dot does seem to blur a little during recoil. Maybe I am actually not seeing the dot during part of it's movement and calling that a blur, I don't know. I think I will need to do a lot more shooting with some higher pressure loadings to see anything concrete here. I was still using the 18lb Wolff spring. It is probable that a heavier spring will be needed by the time all is said, and done here.

Will let you know what happens as I progress with this project.

Regards,

[Flexmoney]

Just posting to re-state what caspian28r was saying earlier...because it is important.

The different bullet profiles will make a difference in case capacity...and more importantly...pressure. In the Glock, we can only load to as long of an OAL as will feed in the magazines (good idea to check that freebore, though).

The different shape of the bullets will mean we could have less case to work with.

(Thought I'd add this as a note to safety. Be careful with this re-loading stuff. )

[Bucky]

1. By far the best, safest powder was Winchester 540. Gave the least amount of pressure problems. Now you can only find this (identical) powder sold as Hogdon HS6. (AA7 = HS7 & I think that is too slow-burning.)

I used WW540 exclusively for a few years in 9x21 and 38 super. I found it not be very temperature sensitive and if any thing got a little faster in hot weather. BTW: I think HS7 = WW571. AA7 is a totally different animal. Great shooter, but will wear the gun out much faster.

[eric nielsen]

My bad. AA7 is on another forum here:

http://64.62.172.100/~brianeno/index.php?a...=ST&f=15&t=2112

Sounds like it takes a ton of powder to make major in Super, that won't work in the short 9x21.

[George]

I have a workable 9x21 load going with AA7 using a .356" 147gr hard cast LSWC (they actually weigh in at around 149-150gr, but I calculate @ 147 anyway). OAL is 1.145", and the primers show no signs of flow whatsoever until the PF gets towards 175. I use WW Magnum SP primers because they ignite well with lightened striker springs needed for good Glock triggers, but are strong enough for the pressures of major (These loads may be different in your gun. This is a 17L, with a 6.5" Bar-Sto 9x21 bbl. G34's will not respond the same due to the 1.2" shorter barrel).

These tests mostly used some vintage 1x CP +p brass I had from way back. I also tried a few of the 168PF loads in recent (not +p) 1x Starline brass, and found no differences in velocity, or any over-pressure indications.

7.1 - 7.2 grains AA7 gets 1140fps (167.5 PF)

7.5 gets 1200ish (176.4 PF)

I worked up the 7.5 grain loading back in 1990, when I used the same 17L, and 9x21 bbl (without porting) to shoot major in Limited when that class first reared it's head. I lasted a month or two of practice, and 1.5 club matches due to not sorting all of the functioning problems out (spring stuff as it turned out).

Now waiting for a new 550 toolhead (ordered at a really great price from our host, thanks Brian!) to dedicate for lighter bullets before I get back to the 124gr testing. I couldn't stand to re-adjust the dies again on the tool head set up for the LSWC, and I've decided that I'm gonna keep that load going for 130PF Glock match fodder.

I will let ya all know how things progress here, and thanks for all of the input.

Regards,

Regards,

[cpty1]

Even though this thread morphed into a loads thread, I thought I'd update everyone on the open gun experiment.

Spent some time this weekend after the South Carolina match playing more with this Glock 9mm open gun. Got loads worked out. Ended up with 8.5 grains of 3n37 with a 125 JHP. Chronographed at 169. I put a thread in the humor forum about an advantage I've found with shooting major 9. You don't need a powder scale! Fill the case to the rim and you're done . I've decided now that Dillon needs to add a powder tamping station to their 9mm presses. Had forgot about the noise and blast Muffs over plugs helped with that.

Anyone familiar with shooting Glocks in either production or limited I feel could adjust very easily to an open Glock. A dot sight is much easier to shoot IMO than iron sights. This particular gun has some things I haven't seen much on open Glocks, i.e. a custom mount to allow a C-More to be attached. Since a major 9 takes a pretty good beating, I think this setup would be more dependable than anything that mounts in the rear sight dovetail and has to reciprocate with the slide. A Dawson Precision "Ice" magwell has been modified and attached to the gun as well. The lower end and action are set up to, and feel similar to my G35 limited gun. I was surprised that this gun with the C-More points almost like my limited gun. I was expecting to have to adjust to a new NPA with the dot, but that hasn't been the case and would make any transition from an iron sighted Glock much quicker and easier. I suppose some of this is due to the lower end feeling/being the same and the C-More not being that much higher above the bore axis than my current iron sighted gun. The gun is fast and light. The current load just kind of bounces the dot up and down in the A zone, although some tweaking and experimenting might reveal and even better load to shoot. I'm going to shoot the gun in local matches here Wednesday night and hopefully again on Saturday. I'm kinda looking forward to it.

[Flexmoney]

Here is a picture of a G34 that I may play with in Open (someday). The green circles are where I think I would like to add additional blow holes to help keep the muzzle down. The red circles are possible slide lightening ideas. (I know, my cirlcles aren't drawn very well. )