FYI: M4, XM8, SCAR and HK416 to compete

[EricW]

Will,

You need me to send you some PMags or HK mags? Or will that get you put in jail?

[cottyw]

Eric,

Sent PM

Will

[jobob]

Eric, Will:

I'm willing to fork up for some P-Mags for the guys in the sandbox. They work great, and you can get 4 or 5 of them for the price of an HK. I know they aren't a Beta-C, like the old man Sullivan is pushing in the PBS infomercial, but they work, take a beating, and feed like 'butta'.

Eric, since you sorta volunteered, how about I send you a check for some mags that work? You can get the black P-Mags through Brownell's for $12/ea, dealer cost. I may be too old to play in the sandbox, but I can help the cause.

[EricW]

jobob,

PM sent... I got 'er covered amigo.

[cottyw]

Great article here: http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-us...troversy-03289/

[ranger]

ARMY TIMES just ran a short article stating that this test is delayed until December - apparently, they are waiting for the SCAR Light test rifles.

[cottyw]

I wonder if the XCR and Masada will be included?

[uscbigdawg]

From cottyw:

Been here in the sand box for a year. Got about 5K through my M4 and about the same with my pistol. Most in training some in combat. I run mine wet. I give it a few squirts before I go out. Same with my pistol and crew served weapons on the team. No problems. Everything is always dirty (moon dust). I have seen about 100 broken AK’s out of maybe 1600. All weapons will malfunction/ break if given enough abuse. I think the regular M4 will do pretty well in the test.

I think the real problem with the AR is the magazine....

Truer words were never spoken. I've got about the same through my M-4 here in A-Stan and have said it even before coming. The magazines are the problem. Period. As for maintenance, yeah ya know, I can't predict when the next sand storm is, but since I fly DUSTOFF we get our share of self induced sand storms and the rifle still works. I'm running it "wet" with graphite in both the rifle and in my HK mags (I snagged them from the armorer quick!) and if I didn't get these would have ordered some PMags. Hasn't failed me yet.

Like Eric, the problem is not how the BCG moves it's a function of other bits and pieces that no one wants to consider. Gas piston systems are not the solution. Frankly, they truly are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Just my opinion though.

If I could have brought one rifle here, it would have been a JP-15. I never use my full-auto (except for fun time on the range) and well, it would be more fun to have something from home. I love my TSS upper though.

Rich

[Religious Shooter]

That would be interesting.

But I can't believe Magpul named their rifle "Masada". Unbelieveble.

Would our Saudi allies be comfortable with a "Masada" assault rifle? Is it really a good idea for our soldiers to patrol Iraqi/Afghanistan streets or any other Islamic countries with a rifle named "Masada"?

[Religious Shooter]

After reading up on it... I'm for the test. Nothing I've read so far gave a reasonable explanation as to why a piston sytem would work better... until the above article.

... Dellta Force had already turned to Heckler & Koch for a fix that would preserve the M4 but remove its problems. One of which is heat build-up and gas from its operating mechanism that dries out some lubricants, and helps open the way for sand damage.

In response, H&K replaced Colt's "gas-tube" system with a short-stroke piston system that eliminates carbon blow-back into the chamber, and also reduces the heat problem created by the super-hot gases used to cycle the M4. Other changes were made to the magazine, barrel, et. al. The final product was an M4 with a new upper receiver and magazine, plus H&K's 4-rail system of standard "Picatinny Rails" on the top, bottom, and both sides for easy addition of anything a Special Operator might require.

In exhaustive tests with the help of Delta Force, the upgraded weapon was subjected to mud and dust without maintenance, and fired day after day. Despite this treatment, the rifle showed problems in only 1 of 15,000 rounds – fully 3 times the reliability shown by the M4 in US Army studies. The H&K 416 was declared ready in 2004.

All other things equal I think a piston system can be marginally helpful in desert environments. And who's to say that different manufacture magazines won't be included in the test?

[xdrocker]

I have had multiple avionics components for dust testing. While I have not been to the sandbox, I have talked to people who have and they say that the dust chamber with the right selection of particle size does a very good job representing the conditions. I second that with the few Az sandstorms that I have witnessed. It is amazing where the dust winds up! We had a mission computer that we found dust in places where we did not know there were places. Environmental testing can be very thorough.

But, testing for soldier/sailor/airperson-proofing can only be done in the field.

Later,

Chuck

PS: You should see stuff coming out of the salt-fog test!

You're right. Has to be tested in the field. I've seen Soldiers that I swear could jack up a tank with a rubber hammer.

I think the real problem with the AR is the magazine. I have shot about 4 in the last year. I put a hole in them so nobody else tries to use them. The magazine on an AK is built like a tank. The most catastrophic malfunction on the M4 is when a round jumps up over the bolt. You have to use a pocketknife to get it out, but thats why they give us a backup pistol. For as long as US GIs have been duking it out at close range they have all carried three weapons like Samurai. Rifle/shotgun, pistol and a knife. Owe, and somebody needs to tell that elderly gentleman we don’t use full auto for regular troops anymore. Standard practice is two rounds at close interval, from the shoulder and with optics.

Hey Cotty,

Here's a quick fix for your bolt overirdes.

Pull charging handle to the rear, yeah it's hard but, it doesn't have to go all the way back.

Drop mag and stick you finger up the magazine well, placing it in front of the bolt.

While holding the bolt back, slap the charging handle forward and the round will fall free.

You should be able to do this in a few seconds, your buddy won't even have time get his pocket knife or gerber out before you are clear and back in the engagement.

Best of luck

[cottyw]

xdrocker,

Thanks, good tip...I will try to simulate and play with it. Who taught you?

Will

[xdrocker]

Can't rememeber if someone showed me that one or if I came up with it. You pick up a few things over the course of 20 years. Keep your head on a swivel bro.

[cottyw]

Do you think the 6.8 case head diameter would fix this problem?

[cottyw]

Someone please take a .40 case and see if it will slide over the bolt on an AR15.

Will

[EricW]

Will,

I'll check tonight.

====================================================

And FWIW, if a rifle named "Masada" offends Islamic radicals, then my rifle just got named "Shalom."

[EricW]

OK, a 40 case will definitely not fall into the groove into the upper.

[uscbigdawg]

If we're worried about offending people we probably should have all these guys wearing Infadel tabs on their ACU's and have the arabic word 'infadel' on their rifle stocks talked to first before worrying about the name of a rifle.

Rich

[SinistralRifleman]

You guys don't have enough flare! You better get this morale patch:

http://www.lapolicegear.com/poeacrpa.html

[Religious Shooter]

Do the Afghani's speak and read Arabic?

[want2race]

I like AR's as much as most, but it's time for a change. Flamesuit on.

(Those that shall not be named) would break an Anvil just to see it done. I've seen breakages that just don't make sense.

As for Graphite, isn't that Carbon based? Carbon build up in a bottle?

I'm rooting for the FN. Mainly the .308. Ah, and there's the real reason for all this testing. Because you just can't fit 7.62x51 in an AR.

[smokshwn]

You guys don't have enough flare! You better get this morale patch:

http://www.lapolicegear.com/poeacrpa.html

on the subject of malfunction clearances

[xpd54]

But I can't believe Magpul named their rifle "Masada". Unbelieveble.

Would our Saudi allies be comfortable with a "Masada" assault rifle? Is it really a good idea for our soldiers to patrol Iraqi/Afghanistan streets or any other Islamic countries with a rifle named "Masada"?

No offense, RS, but offending the sensibilities of our Muslim "allies" should be of no concern to us. We already piss them off by being allies with Israel. If they don't like it, F@#$ 'em.

[Religious Shooter]

Say we didn't have all of our Muslim allies. Where would we be?

I don't think America can or should go it alone.

If we didn't have the Saudis as our allies where would we have staged our forces in DSI/II? Where would we get most of our oil if we didn't have our Muslim allies?

I'm sorry but naming a rifle "Masada" is just bad for business. Why give them fuel or reason to hate us (even more)?

I guess you don't cotton to what our lawmakers did with IMI Bullets bullets.

[Flexmoney]

I searched aroun, but didn't find any other threads. Please point me to one if I missed it...

Anybody have any info on this?

Introducing the "AR15 Fix" (Patent Pending), a revolutionary new "Retro-Fit Piston Driven Cycling System" for the AR15/M-16 rifle. Adams Arms piston driven systems replace the problematic impingement system currently associated with the mil-spec Ar15, m16 style rifles.

http://www.ar15fix.com/