Draw from Concealment

[TNK]

Is there a rule in the current USPSA rule book that prevents me from requiring shooters to wear a cover garment and draw from concealment on a particular stage? Is so, please cite the rule. I have looked in vain for such a rule.

Also, I understand that USPSA matches are to be "freestyle," but US1.1.5.1 exempts Level I matches from freestyle requirements and round count limitations.

Edited August 25, 2007 by Trevor

[Larry White]

Is there a rule in the current USPSA rule book that prevents me from requiring shooters to wear a cover garment and draw from concealment on a particular stage? Is so, please cite the rule. I have looked in vain for such a rule.

Also, I understand that USPSA matches are to be "freestyle," but US1.1.5.1 exempts Level I matches from freestyle requirements and round count limitations.[/qdelete

Edited August 25, 2007 by lkytx

[dfwmiket]

I know I'm going to hate myself for asking, but exactly "why" would you want to do this?

One of the reasons I switched from the 'other' sport to this one was for that reason.

Hard to conceal an Open gun in a Ghost holster.

I'd recommend if you want to add to the complexity of a stage, force the shooter to use strong or weakhand only or something along those lines.

-Mike

[Nik Habicht]

Trevor,

you could probably get away with it, by writing it in the stage description, as a requirement --- but that brings up logistical problems: You'll need to provide a garment, in multiple sizes --- and there'll be definite safety implications. In short, I'd strongly recommend you reconsider.....

OTOH, a match director in our section, livens up the winter matches, by having theme months: For instance, one monthly match is revolver neutral, with gun on table or on barrel starts; another match offers participants a chance at a different prize if they shoot the entire match from concealment with carry guns; another month is the annual single-stack match, where participants shooting SS could be in the running for extra prizes, with another prize coming to the competitor shooting the highest .45 power factor in the match. The difference is he makes it optional --- so that those folks who want to ply by the theme can, while others can shoot a normal match. That also puts the onus for the safety of competitor equipment --- holsters, concealment garments --- back on the competitor, where it belongs.

As a match director, I could be persuaded to host a theme match; I would not permit a stage with a match supplied cover garment for liability reasons....

[Flexmoney]

USPSA shooting is Freestyle. The exemption doesn't apply here.

The exemption in US1.1.5.1 isn't there as a free pass to do whatever. It is there to allow for the fact that sometimes clubs are limited on resources (manpower, props, time, etc.)

If you read the wording of the exemption, is says that you don't have to "comply strictly" with the freestyle requirements. That doesn't mean the Match Director shouldn't still strive to run a freestyle match. It just means they have some wiggle room if they need it when circumstances won't allow them to run a pure freestyle match.

Sometimes a Match Director or stage designer wants to do whatever the heck they want, so they try to hide that under the freestyle exemption. But, that is bad. It's not USPSA shooting.

Good USPSA stage designers don't abuse the exemption.

Now, with all that said...

You could require the shooter to utilize a prop by writing that into the stage procedure. And, like carrying a briefcase, wearing a garment would likely be legal, if properly worded...and if it could remain fair to everybody (no fair wearing your own custom constructed gamer cover garment if others only get an old flannel shirt).

They had a stage at a larger match this year that required the shooters to wear a (supplied) life jacket. Many weren't all that happy about it, from the reports that I read. Was it a shooting challenge? Maybe. That might depend on how you look at it. It certainly was a distraction from the shooting...and distractions are a challenge. It might have simulated being in a boat...and that is practical. It might have simulated wearing a flak vest...which is practical (though perhaps not likely for all).

I kinda like the idea...once. It will be a hard sell for the regular USPSA shooters though. Quite an effort there. Then, you'd have to figure out how to keep it fair for everybody. You'd need to supply the garment(s) used. And, they'd need to fit all the shooters...young and old...really big and really small.

On the other hand, if you are just looking to do this because that is how YOU think practical shooting ought to be, then don't. A once a year fun distraction is one thing, having somebody's view of how it ought to be is another thing entirely. That isn't why shooters come to USPSA matches.

[Flyin40]

I don't think this is a good idea for safety reasons. In Uspsa we have to many people using "Race Holsters" and having to move and draw while wearing a cover garment is asking for trouble. Things get snagged, caught and guns fall out of holsters. Though there alot of guys using regular holsters but where I shoot most wear race holsters. I shoot an Open gun with a Safariland holster. I hate when it rains, not because I have to shoot in it but because I wear a rain jacket and have to constantly worry about it getting knocked out when the Jacket snags on something. It doesn't come out easy by any means but pressure in the right spot and it will pop out easily. Just not a good idea.

Flyin

Edited August 26, 2007 by Flyin40

[Flexmoney]

Very good point.

[kimel]

The life jacket stage was at Missoula L10/Open Nationals. They had a pile of life jackets of various sizes so every shooter could, theoretically, find one that fit. For most, the life jacket rode up above the handgun and only really served as a distraction.

Drawing from concealment is a skill that must be practiced in order to do it safely. Many USPSA shooters carry and thus practice this at least to some extent; many do not or cannot and thus this forced action could present a safety issue. I suspect very few practice drawing from concealment with race guns, race holsters, etc.

Such a stage runs significant risk, IMHO, of getting tossed for safety issues. If I was the RM of the match I probably would remove the draw from concealment requirement based upon safety alone unless I could be convinced this could be done safely. I'd much rather deal with a stage designer's bruised ego than a physical injury.

[mactiger]

Uh, let's make one correction: the life jacket stage (Float Trip Ambush) only required you to start with the life jacket on, and it didn't have to be buckled. Most competitors chose to cinch it up and wear it for the stage, but it was never required. Freestyle, see?

Troy

[ima45dv8]

NOW you tell us!

I would not be in favor a stage that required a cover garment for the same safety reasons already listed. Bad ju-ju looking for a place to happen.

To add a bit to Flex's excellent description of the Level I exemption, I was taught by John Amidon in my RO class that it allows a stage designer/MD to create a stage that requires more than 32 rounds (think "Crazy Croc"), and it allows infringing on the freestyle aspect of USPA shooting by specifying what targets can be shot from where (that's a pretty good source as far as I'm concerned). For example, a WSB can specify shooting T1-T3 from Box A even though they might be visible from elsewhere. That's it.

All other rules remain intact, like not requiring a shooter to go "strong-hand only, mandatory reload, then weak-hand-only" within the same component string. Or having a Virginia Count scoring system applied to a stage that otherwise meets the requirements for a Long Course/Field Course. That's just the way it is. The next rulebook may invite some lee-way on this point, though.

I know a lot of other folks have a widely differing view of the LI Exception, but I can only go by what the Director of NROI told me, both in person and in subsequent emails.

[LPatterson]

Two clubs that I belong to each have a conceal carry match as the last match of the season and we have fun at it because most of the time a coat is a welcome accessory. Prizes are limited to carry type configurations, if you want to use a race gun holster or open gun then shoot for fun. Restrictions are removed for the classifier and we have several people who shoot the match just for the classifier.

When clubs are 200 miles apart and weather limits you to 8 months of the year you learn to shoot for fun.

[sloopy70]

for the amount of conflict it seems to cause in relation to the "challenge" your trying to impose, its not worth it... Your just trying to slow the draw time down a little, then this "challenge" is over... best way to do this would be to place the gun loaded somewhere away from the shooter where they would have to retrieve it... same "challenge" is met with no hassle, and its a regular practice of stage design to do this...

[TNK]

Thank you for the replies. Because there is no rule against it, the main reason not to do it is that it would irritate people. Granted, there are other ways to slow down a draw; the suggestions to do so are good ones, but, alas, the moves I have seen all before.

As for the assertion that requiring a draw from concealment would be a safety problem, well, the same thing was said of shooting on the move when IPSC first got started. The fact is IPSC has a good safety record in the 30 or more years of its existence. I think IPSC shooters can handle a draw from concealment as well as any challenge presented to them. The issue though, from what I infer reading the above, most would think it is not in the spirit of the game. Okay, but the debate on what is IPSC is not settled. To be cont'd.

[Joe4d]

I guess all the IDPA shooters are safer ? I just went through the rulebook and was surprised to find there isnt actually a specific requirement for a gun to stay in the holster or have any level of retention other than what a RO feels is safe or not. First issue, I really dont think we need concealment stages, as stated alot of shooters dont shoot other sports because of this. Second issue if you have to worry about a garmet or any other minor doodad knocking your gun out of its holster you need another holster. (my opinion evidently not the BOD's) Of all the shooting sports and matches I have attended USPSA is the only one where firearms routinely get dropped on the ground. I really would like to see a return to the old style minimum retention rules.

[Crusher]

Granted, there are other ways to slow down a draw

Sounds like your "new" to the stage design game, a little hint for the future, don't EVER try to "@#^*" with your customers (that's what they are), chalange them in accuracy, movement, transitions, dynamic targets ect. and be creative but NEVER EVER @#^" with them. You will soon have NO CUSTOMERS and a REPUTATION in a small community with the wrong aproach.

[richardschennberg]

This is a great idea for a side match, but not appropriate for the main USPSA/IPSC match.