Merlin Orr Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 How close to the shooter should you stand? So close that they cannot swing past you. No one will be allowed that much room again as long as I can keep up with them. DOn't give them the room. Jim So as an RO we are to physically deny a shooter room to move in a "wrong" direction? Ahhhhh........ Not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 (edited) How close to the shooter should you stand? So close that they cannot swing past you. No one will be allowed that much room again as long as I can keep up with them. DOn't give them the room. Jim So as an RO we are to physically deny a shooter room to move in a "wrong" direction? Ahhhhh........ Not. Merlin has a valid point... It's damn hard to be close enough to intercept a wrong move, but also give the shooter enough room to run the COF without bumping heads with the RO. I think you need to spot possible problem areas and move in closer in those areas and give more space in others that are less likely to be a problem. The last thing you want to do is cause the very thing you are trying to prevent. Edited August 7, 2007 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 Most people cannot react in time to physically stop most 180 violations that I have seen. Sometimes you can read body language and warn a person getting close. I try to not touch a person when I am ROing. I don't want to cause a AD. I have been ROing for something like 18 years and have had to touch VERY few people. Some RO's get way too close and I ask, do you want to be the person that ends someone's shooting by causing a career ending injury? What exactly are you doing or trying to accomplish by "riding" on a shooters shoulder? I have a few RO's be so close to my side on the start that I hesitated Load and make ready cause they were almost downrange. If you are grabbing arms on a regular basis I think that you are doing something funky or shooting with the wrong people. There are times, sure, that you would flat hand push or direct an arm or person. ROing is a fluid task but the real responsibility is on the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePete Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 (edited) Playing devils advocate here! I'm not saying that you're wrong by touching the shooter, BUT, the shooter could (if he was an a$$hole) claim interference by touching and possibly get a reshoot. Edited August 7, 2007 by RePete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 Playing devils advocate here!I'm not saying that you're wrong by touching the shooter, BUT, the shooter could (if he was an a$$hole) claim interference by touching and possibly get a reshoot. Can't get a reshoot after a DQ for violating the 180 prior to the "touch". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 Great thread... I like to hear how ROs, who have done this for many years, handle the situation. Your knowledge will be assimilated... JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy Metal Only Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 So far a simple open-handed block has been fine to give them that extra split second to realize what's going on. Open-handed block is fine ........ then grasp the wrist of the strong hand and strike the elbow. This can be followed by a roundhouse kick to the throat or if you prefer, a groin kick. Hmmm. Never mind. I never should have read that Texas Ninja thread. Tls I wish I could have taken that R.O. class. We didn't get to hit anyone in the class I took. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePete Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 Playing devils advocate here!I'm not saying that you're wrong by touching the shooter, BUT, the shooter could (if he was an a$$hole) claim interference by touching and possibly get a reshoot. Can't get a reshoot after a DQ for violating the 180 prior to the "touch". True, but he may say that he was touched prior to the break. Remember that he's an a$$hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 No. Read the rule. 8.6.3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzdraw Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I do think that the RO has a significant responsibility to the gallery to protect them from injury. The RO is probably the only individual who can can take affirmative action during the course of a 180 break. I'd rather risk bumping a shooter than being too far out of position to provide safety for the shooter and gallery. It's very rare that I do bump a shooter and I do stay out of their way to negotiate the course. Keeping out of their peripheral vision is part of the key to not impede the shooter. A few months ago, I got out of position whilst RO'ing a new shooter who got past the 180, way past. The arm above the elbow was not accessible, only the gun or the forearm. I chose to control only by voice, due to the risk the gun might discharge. An attempt to go for the gun or the forearm might well have caused an AD in this circumstance and the gallery could have been at risk. Every circumstance is different, as I've learned from 28 years of RO'ing in IPSC/USPSA. If I'd been in position, I could have handled the shooter differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 True, but he may say that he was touched prior to the break. Remember that he's an a$$hole. More reason to DQ his a$$ and get him off the range. And the rule (8.6.3) says "may". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38superman Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 (edited) So far a simple open-handed block has been fine to give them that extra split second to realize what's going on. Open-handed block is fine ........ then grasp the wrist of the strong hand and strike the elbow. This can be followed by a roundhouse kick to the throat or if you prefer, a groin kick. Hmmm. Never mind. I never should have read that Texas Ninja thread. Tls I wish I could have taken that R.O. class. We didn't get to hit anyone in the class I took. Join Today. You too could be a proud member of the NROI ........ Ninja Range Officers Institute Tony "Miyagi" Shores - Charter Member In all seriousness, .... it is difficult to give a shooter the room to manuever and stay out of his way, and still be in a position to physically restrain him if he violates the 180 while running the COF. Where you should be in such a position is during the start and end of the course. If the shooter experiences brain fade while making ready or showing clear/holster you should be in a position to protect the gallery. If someone swings their muzzle toward me or the crowd it will probably happen too fast for him to react to a voice command. Using an open hand to block further movement is appropriate. Grabbing the shooter? Don't think so. It may only make a bad situation worse. Edited August 8, 2007 by 38superman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Merlin, I think we are likely more on the same page than either of our posts indicate. I want to be close enough that the shooter will not straigt arm sweep across my chest, I do not want to be so close as to have continual risk of collision. It is a fine line and as others have said, the specifics of the COF and the Shooter will come into play. Runnig straight down range is not presenting too much danger, Starting so that the second target is on or very near to the 180 line presents a different situation, In this case the shooter may, as happened, break across and do the clockwise swing that crossed me. I will not allow that much room in that type of situation. (At least I never will plan to.) I have had an RO stop me because on the draw he bumped my arm. I would rather have had him allow me to continue since the bump was not even felt and the hits were really good, not nearly so good on the reshoot. ROing of neccesity must be a fluid endeavor in order to cover all of the possibilites that may arise. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWord Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Playing devils advocate here!I'm not saying that you're wrong by touching the shooter, BUT, the shooter could (if he was an a$$hole) claim interference by touching and possibly get a reshoot. Can't get a reshoot after a DQ for violating the 180 prior to the "touch". True, but he may say that he was touched prior to the break. Remember that he's an a$$hole. I am quite willing to give the shoter a reshoot if by my interference I prevented him from breaking the 180. However, 99% of the the time it happens so fast by the time you can react, they are past the 180 and even if they want a reshoot, they have to get it from the Arbitration Committee. Good luck. As far as the reshoots go, I always remember 20. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 As far as the reshoots go, I always remember 20. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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