Bolt Rifle Questions

[3GunF1Guy]

You should also look at the Meopta "Meostar R1 4-16x44 Stainless Zplex tactical turrets Riflescope" It has great glass and right now is and inexpensive item. If you go to www.eurooptic.com they have them for $550.00

I puchased one for my bolt gun. When I put it side by side with my US Optics scope it has glass that is every bit as good as the USO.

Scott

[Sc0]

Before you purchase a scope call that manufacturers customer service to see if it's easy to contact them and what the procedures would be to send one in if it breaksand the typical turn around time. From what I can tell IOR has a "single" line for customer service, and so far I am a month into the warrantee with my "blue" band IOR and am waiting for it to be returned.

I have Nightforce scopes and the glass is exceptionally clear and the way prices are now they are in the same price league as IOR's. (when I purchased my IOR 6-24x50 30mm tube, it was the same price as a Leupold.) I have a nightforce mounted on a AR-10T with LOTS of rounds through it, and now have one on a AR-50. Another scope which seems durable for anything below a .50 and has excellent glass/tracking is a Zeiss Conquest. For the price they are HARD to beat...

[Bill T]

For the best, (or at least one of the best), prices on Leupolds you might want to try Bruno's right here in the valley. He has a ton of them in stock, and his prices are among the best I've seen on the Benchrest Target, and Mark IV models. I have a C&R License which gives me dealer cost from Midway and I can get the Leupold Mark IV 8.5-25X with non illuminated reticle for $993.00 which isn't too bad. I believe the same scope with the illuminated reticle is $1,199.00. Still not bad. A C&R License is very easy to get and will be the best $30.00 you'll ever spend! Bill T.

[uscbigdawg]

So I have a 308 in route as my learning gun and 'wannabe' 1000 yard rifle. Figure it's cheaper and easier to shoot it than my GAP. Anyways, the quest for glass continues. So, if anyone has ACTUAL experience with 1000 yard scopes for less than a grand, I'd appreciate it. The point of this rifle is a "budget build" on purpose. I have the money to buy whatever optic I want. This rifle is to make the sport less intimidating.

Likely contenders:

- Super Sniper

- Nikon Monarch

- IOR Valdada

- Sightron SIII

- Bushnell 4200

- Burris ?

Any other tips/suggestions are appreciated.

Rich

[Religious Shooter]

I have a Horus Vision Hawk on my .223 700 which I sorta use as a trainer for my .308.

http://horusvision.com/hawk.php

If you have $$$ to burn it's a good way to see if you like the Horus system.

Glass is so so (usable). I have no idea on the repeatability of the adjustments as I use the reticle for adjustments. But the adjustments are .1 mil and the reticle is mil based. Which I believe is the same as your S&B.

Also check out the Millet Tactical.

http://www.swfa.com/pc-11722-1395-millett-...riflescope.aspx

Tony Palzkill (took 6th in the 2008 TBRC with a .308) has one on his rifle. He says it tracks. It has 1/8" adjustments. But hey... it's $279.00.

A review on the Millet:

http://www.snipercentral.com/milletttrs.htm

[uscbigdawg]

I kinda dig the Horus you pointed out. I've always like Horus scopes and their reticles. So wagging that a 308 to get to 1000 is about 13 mils of vertical, does the Hawk have enough adjustment in it, or am I automatically going to a 20 MOA base by going to it (or really any other scope).

The Millet TRS is a very interesting looking scope. I'm always skeptical of something that looks to good to be true, but the price is worth a try.

Rich

[davidwiz]

Have you looked at SWFA's Sample List? Lots of store samples and refurbished scopes and other optics.

[uscbigdawg]

Yeah...I check it out every once in a while.

Rich

[uscbigdawg]

Oops

Edited December 16, 2008 by uscbigdawg

[Religious Shooter]

I kinda dig the Horus you pointed out. I've always like Horus scopes and their reticles. So wagging that a 308 to get to 1000 is about 13 mils of vertical, does the Hawk have enough adjustment in it, or am I automatically going to a 20 MOA base by going to it (or really any other scope).

The Hawk has 8 mils on the reticle. The range with the turrets is supposed to be 22 mils. You can reach a 1000 using the turrets and/or the reticle with the 20 MOA base. But I don't know about the reliability/repeatability of the adjustments. So in second thought I would only recommend the Hawk up to 7-850 yards (depending on the load) with a .308.

[kgunz11]

I'm a NF junkie, and I own or have owned a LOT of scopes. Take my opinion for what it is, just an opinion.

-SS glass sucks. They track good and are a good budget scope, and I am not a "glass snob", but they really are not very good in that area.

-Bushnell scopes have ok glass, but tracking isn't reliable and they are easily knocked off zero.

-Leupold makes a pretty nice scope. Only complaints there are reticles are not in the same unit of measure as the knobs. They are getting a little on the pricey side for what they offer as well.

-IOR makes great glass but has so so quality control. Without Scott Berrish from Liberty Optics I would say under no circumstances anyway anyhow should you buy an IOR. That's too much money to spend on something man made that can and WILL break.

-US Optics sent me a scope with a spinning reticle. I sent it back for repair and got it back with really fogged up glass. Evidently the glue wasn't really dry or something before the scope was reassembled is what they told me. After a few trips back and forth they just replaced the scope for me and I was happy. US Optics has one of the best CS departments in the business, period.

-I have quite a few Nightforce scopes. Haven't been able to break one yet. Just packaged up one of the 2.5x10 models to send back after doing a T&E. I am a little partial to the NF. I wanted a reticle that wasn't available and after some phone calls and exchanging emails with Jeff, including a whole buncha drawings I got the scope I wanted and thus the NP-R1 reticle was born. I'll post some pics of the FFP NP-R1 scope as soon an I am given the OK. I pestered the shit out of Jeff until he would make a FFP scope. He knew some day he would have to and I was pretty relentless. I even have 5.5x22x50 NP-R1 scopes on my hunting rifles. It's the best bang for the buck in my mind. Buy once cry once.

If you want to win a NF scope just come to The Practical Marksman Challenge II in East Alabama, we're giving 2 of them away.

[uscbigdawg]

So I gave up on the Horus Hawk. Just doesn't seem like enough elevation. On the "cheap" side of scopes, I've got it down to a Nikon Monarch or Falcon Menace. Other than Scooter, has anyone had any experience with these?

On the more pricey side, I'm back into the direction that I know I should go:

- Leupy M4 LR/T 4.5-14x w/ M2 knobs and Illum. TMR reticle

- NF 5.5-22x w/ zero stop and NP-R1 reticle

As a side note, I want to confirm something that I've been doing for years, but having never taken a class on LR shooting (yet), I want to see what my BE.com family says. Typically, you'll find scopes that are mil-dot w/ MOA adjustments and SFP. I've only used the reticle for ranging targets and just have done my distance/elevation & windage adjustments by dialing it. The reason (TO ME) has been that I don't want to do the math from MOA to mils (and vice versa) to be able to calculate holdovers mils to MOA and I think reticle hold overs are less precise than dialing them in.

What do y'all think?

Rich

[kgunz11]

You should also look at the Meopta "Meostar R1 4-16x44 Stainless Zplex tactical turrets Riflescope" It has great glass and right now is and inexpensive item. If you go to www.eurooptic.com they have them for $550.00

I puchased one for my bolt gun. When I put it side by side with my US Optics scope it has glass that is every bit as good as the USO.

Scott

Unfortunately, that isn't saying much in that comparison. I have been disappointed with the glass in my USO 3.8x22x44. Sometimes you get a good one, sometimes you don't.

[kgunz11]

So I gave up on the Horus Hawk. Just doesn't seem like enough elevation. On the "cheap" side of scopes, I've got it down to a Nikon Monarch or Falcon Menace. Other than Scooter, has anyone had any experience with these?

On the more pricey side, I'm back into the direction that I know I should go:

- Leupy M4 LR/T 4.5-14x w/ M2 knobs and Illum. TMR reticle

- NF 5.5-22x w/ zero stop and NP-R1 reticle

As a side note, I want to confirm something that I've been doing for years, but having never taken a class on LR shooting (yet), I want to see what my BE.com family says. Typically, you'll find scopes that are mil-dot w/ MOA adjustments and SFP. I've only used the reticle for ranging targets and just have done my distance/elevation & windage adjustments by dialing it. The reason (TO ME) has been that I don't want to do the math from MOA to mils (and vice versa) to be able to calculate holdovers mils to MOA and I think reticle hold overs are less precise than dialing them in.

What do y'all think?

Rich

Horus scopes aren't really made for dialing. The key feature of the scope is the reticle. They don't have the best track record for repeatability or accurate adjustment either. They are made to zero it and leave it, use the targeting grid for engagements beyond the zero distance.

If you want to be successful in long range precision rifle shooting, a Kestrel and a palm pilot make life very simple. There are lots of ways to go about making your palm work with a ballistics calculator and to be dean nuts accurate you need to confirm on at least 2 of them.

Dialing can in most cases be more accurate than a hold, and in some cases offer no advantage, it depends on the target distance and the hold. Dialing 1 mil and holding 1 mil (or MOA) are the same. Dilaing .7 mils and holding .7 mils is a little different and a practiced shooter to can do both with the same level of accuracy.

If I were one of your shooting buddies and you approached me about wanting to get into long range shooting, this is what I would tell you.

-You need a scope with either an MOA or mil graduated reticle. (knobs in same unit of measure helps but not required)

-You need a PDA with a ballistics calculator

-You need a Kestrel or similar weather station

Without a rifle and load accurate to 1 MOA you're not going to go far.

With the Kestrel, you can get altitude, temperature, humidity, wind speed/direction, and barometric pressure. All are critical to accurate shots at extended distances. With the data gathered from the Kestrel you can input that into the PDA with the ballistics calculator. You can also use the PDA for ranging. You enter target size and mils or MOA read and it gives you the distance and dope for that target engagement. Modern technology makes things a lot easier than they have been in the past and that is why people are now making shots never before imagined.

Once someone shows you or walks you through using the PDA and Kestrel it's just a matter of application after that.

[uscbigdawg]

Got all that part, but given that most scopes on the market (even some expensive ones) are mil reticle and MOA adjustments, is my practice sound?

FWIW, I will be (very soon...Christmas is 2 days away) a Kestrel 4500 and a Swarovski LRF. Just need the PDA/software and the rest of my 'kit'.

Rich

[Scooter]

A lot of the scope manufacturer are going FFP and Mil/Mil. Premier's new scope is FFP, Mil/Mil. Nightforce just came out with a FFP and Mil/Mil. With FFP and Mil/Mil, if you spot your miss, you can easily dial in the correct amount without having to convert from Mil to MOA.

[kgunz11]

Rich,

With a PDA, it will convert mils to MOA for you, but even better, it can tell you what to dial or hold. I even have one program that has an illustrated reticle that shows you where to hold in windage and elevation. Seeing it helps some folks.

Without a PDA, you could simply just use a mildot master. It will convert mils to MOA and MOA to mils. I have a Palm that has several ballistic calculators and I use my Windows Mobile cell phone as a back up. With the NF Exbal I have several different rifle profiles saved in there so when I go to shoot I just pick the rifle and enter the atmospheric conditions and rock on.

If you need any help or anything just shoot me a PM with a phone number and a good time to call and I'll share what I have learned.

[Religious Shooter]

As a side note, I want to confirm something that I've been doing for years, but having never taken a class on LR shooting (yet), I want to see what my BE.com family says. Typically, you'll find scopes that are mil-dot w/ MOA adjustments and SFP. I've only used the reticle for ranging targets and just have done my distance/elevation & windage adjustments by dialing it. The reason (TO ME) has been that I don't want to do the math from MOA to mils (and vice versa) to be able to calculate holdovers mils to MOA and I think reticle hold overs are less precise than dialing them in.

I think everybody (except me) dials. Dialing is the norm. In terms of popularity, using the reticle is a very far second.

Personally I stick with the reticle for adjustments because of the USPSA MOR/PR matches that I've shot. Relatively a lot of transitions between different ranges while on the clock. In contrast other PR matches I've shot either have a very generous fixed time or no time limit at all. Sometimes a "stage" only has one target. The stages are geared for clickers.

I've seen numerous times where a shooter will forget to dial back to the correct settings. Or they have dialed a full revolution and forgot to go back. I usually don't dial so I don't have that problem using a Horus.

Also with click adjustments... it's mechanical. Personally I just don't trust mechanical adjustments. My SN3 becomes inaccurate past 8 or so mils. It's like it's .9999999 mils of adjustment instead of .1 mils (like it should be). With small adjustments it is good. But with larger adjustments it doesn't pan out to be .1 mils. And of course you have to be wary of sticky adjustments with some scopes.

In my limited experience the reticle has been more "precise" than using the dials.

I know I'm in a very small minority so take that with a grain of salt.

[kgunz11]

Some Courses Of Fire in many matches either won't give you time or won't allow you to dial. At ASC, you are given 60 seconds to engage 7 targets going up a hill side at a very steep angle. The closest one is 240 yards and the far most target is over 700. Rules stipulate you can't adjust the scope. You are asked to put on a 100 yd zero.

With my MOA reticle I am just as accurate using holds as anyone else is dialing the correction. I would not be able to say the same thing using a mil based reticle. In essence, the 1 MOA graduations are almost equal to a mil reticle graduated in .25 mils, thus making it easier to make more accurate hold over shots.

[Religious Shooter]

There was a stage at the TBRC that didn't allow you to dial. Kind of lame... but it's definitely not unheard of to make the shooter use the reticle for adjustments.

Anyways...

Most of the Horus reticles are graduated in .2 mils. The spaces are at .1 mil increments. So essentially you have .1 mil (.36") adjustments on some Horus (H25, H38, etc.) reticles.

The majority of the MOA reticles I've seen have 2 MOA increments as the hash marks... with the spaces then being 1 MOA increments. So I figure there are 1 MOA adjustments on the reticle on a typical MOA reticle.

I think the Nightforce NP-R1 is the only MOA scope that has MOA hashmarks... which means .5 MOA adjustments.

Some of the newer MIL reticles have .5 mil hashmarks (TMR, USO Mil-Scale, etc). Which would mean .25 mil = .9" adjustments on the reticle.

If you have a traditional mil reticle... it would suck to use the reticle (1.8 MOA adjustments) for hold-overs.

[kgunz11]

There was a stage at the TBRC that didn't allow you to dial. Kind of lame... but it's definitely not unheard of to make the shooter use the reticle for adjustments.

Anyways...

Most of the Horus reticles are graduated in .2 mils. The spaces are at .1 mil increments. So essentially you have .1 mil (.36") adjustments (maybe the word you are looking for here is "increment"?) on some Horus (H25, H38, etc.) reticles.

The majority of the MOA reticles I've seen have 2 MOA increments as the hash marks... with the spaces then being 1 MOA increments. So I figure there are 1 MOA adjustments on the reticle on a typical MOA reticle. A reticle does not adjust, the turrets are used for adjustments, unless you want to consider changing the power on a SFP "adjusting" the reticle. Every scope I have owned has had the reticle etched in the glass.

I think the Nightforce NP-R1 is the only MOA scope that has MOA hashmarks... which means .5 MOA adjustments. USO makes several MOA reticles graduated in 1 MOA spacing in both windage and elevation. The NP-R1 is 2 MOA in windage and 1 MOA in elevation. There is also the Horus MOA reticle and the Wonder Optics MOA reticle. The "adjustments" on the NF and USO can be had in .25, .5, and 1 MOA.

Some of the newer MIL reticles have .5 mil hashmarks (TMR, USO Mil-Scale, etc). Which would mean .25 mil = .9" adjustments on the reticle. And NF has the MLR, it too is in .5 mil increments.

If you have a traditional mil reticle... it would suck to use the reticle (1.8 MOA adjustments) for hold-overs. Actually a mil is 3.6 MOA.

[ShooterSteve]

I use the 5.11 watch with the Ballistic Calculator built into it. I just haven't put the time into it to see how it matches up with real life. Since you put all of the load data into it which is your actual bullet info, I am hoping that it is pretty close. It does match up very very closly to the info over at eskimo.com. Speaking of scopes, it is crazy how much things have gone up price wise. I have a Leupold 6.5x20-40mm. Has a target dot and target turrets. My wife lost a bet with me and that was what I won. Tax and all out the door it was about $325. Of course that was 1986, but jeesh has stuff gone up that much for todays cost to be so high? The thing I love most about accurate rifles and good scopes is go to the range with blank cardstock. Walk down with your buddies to put up targets and put up the card stock. You will get a lot of snickering about how you are a dumbass for not having anything on it to shoot at. When you get back just put a round into the center of the paper. There will be more snickering about how anyone can hit a stupid 8x11 sheet of paper, but the laughing will stop when you start shooting at your first bullet hole and you are hitting it!

[Religious Shooter]

A reticle does not adjust, the turrets are used for adjustments, unless you want to consider changing the power on a SFP "adjusting" the reticle. Every scope I have owned has had the reticle etched in the glass.

If the ballistic program says you have to say go one mil "up" on a given target... what do you do with a Horus reticle. Instead of adjusting up 10 on my elevation turret I'm "adjusting" using the reticle. I'm adjusting by going to the hashmark that says "1".

Just like the typical shooter using a turret to adjust for elevation... I am instead using the hashmarks and spaces on my reticle to adjust.

Potato. Potato.

If you have a traditional mil reticle... it would suck to use the reticle (1.8 MOA adjustments) for hold-overs. Actually a mil is 3.6 MOA.

Well yes. 1 Mil = 3.6 MOA.

3.6 MOA/2 = 1.8 MOA.

What I'm getting at is when you do a hold-over with a mil reticle you either use a dot (that's at 3.6 MOA increments) or you use the space between the dots for your hold-over (1.8 MOA increments) (and of course you can use swag for further refinement).

---------------- <==== main crosshair

<--- 1.8 MOA or .5 Mil (space)

* <---- 3.6 MOA or 1 mil (dot)

<----- 5.4 MOA or 1.5 mil (space)

* <---- 7.2 MOA or 2 mil (dot)

etc.

1.8 MOA at each increment... from the crosshair, to the first space, to first mil dot, to the second space, to the second mil dot, etc. ==> 1.8 MOA adjustments using the reticle.

Using a traditional mil reticle is just like having an elevation turret with 1.8 MOA adjustments.

USO makes several MOA reticles graduated in 1 MOA spacing in both windage and elevation.

Which USO reticles have 1 MOA hashmarks?

[kgunz11]

A traditional mildot reticle has no hashmarks, just mildots, which are 3.6 MOA apart.

Look here for the US Optics reticles:

http://www.usoptics.com/upgrades.php?recor...rectype=Reticle

[Religious Shooter]

A traditional mildot reticle has no hashmarks, just mildots, which are 3.6 MOA apart.

... right. But you don't have to use a dot as a primary aiming point. You can bracket (use the space between the dots) the target.

So if you use the spaces, you have 1.8 MOA adjustments in a traditional mil dot reticle.

Basically if you have X hashmarks... you have X/2 adjustments on the reticle.

1 mil hashmarks = 3.6" => 3.6"/2 = 1.8" adjustments using the reticle.

1 MOA hashmarks => 1"/2 = .5" adjustments using the reticle.