Bolt Rifle Questions

[kgunz11]

A traditional mildot reticle has no hashmarks, just mildots, which are 3.6 MOA apart.

... right. But you don't have to use a dot as a primary aiming point. You can bracket (use the space between the dots) the target.

So if you use the spaces, you have 1.8 MOA adjustments in a traditional mil dot reticle.

Basically if you have X hashmarks... you have X/2 adjustments on the reticle.

1 mil hashmarks = 3.6" => 3.6"/2 = 1.8" adjustments using the reticle.

1 MOA hashmarks => 1"/2 = .5" adjustments using the reticle.

Between the dots on a mildot reticle is .8 mils.

There is no mark between the dots, so how do you come up with 1.8 MOA? Are you saying the shooter should "guess" at the middle?

In order to be accurate in ranging or holding with a mildot you have to be able to see within .05 mils accurately.

A lot of things sound good in theory, but when applied in a practical situation, they don't quite work that way. Target size, atmospheric conditions, and target distance...

For example, this passed weekend I was shooting at paint cans at 500 yards. That's a .5 MOA target at 500 yards and I was hitting it using holds, both windage and elevation. Not an easy task with a mildot reticle for sure.

[Religious Shooter]

If you were forced to do hold-overs per the stage instructions and you had a standard mil reticle... what else would you do but bracket the target if the target's range doesn't fall into a dot?

Are you under the impression that I'm saying that hold-overs with a standard mil reticle is desireable? As I stated:

If you have a traditional mil reticle... it would suck to use the reticle (1.8 MOA adjustments) for hold-overs.

If I was limited to a standard mil reticle I wouldn't use the reticle to adjust. I'd dial.

But I run Horus reticles so I don't dial. I use the reticle to adjust.

But if I was forced too use a standard mil reticle for hold overs I would treat as I stated... 1.8 MOA adjustments on the reticle.

In order to be accurate in ranging or holding with a mildot you have to be able to see within .05 mils accurately.

.05 mils x 3.6" = .18"

What/why?

[uscbigdawg]

Gordon - The only reason I was "giving up" Horus Hawk was just not being confident that I'd make it to 1000 with it shooting a 308. Even with a 20 MOA base, I think I'd be close to run out and while I guess I could go to a 30 MOA base, it'd be a little annoying for those < 100 yard, .25 MOA shots. Know what I mean?

Since you've got the most time (of anyone I know on the Hawk) can it go to 1k with a 308?

Rich

ETA: I'm kinda looking at the Horus Raptor now. Bastards!!! ALL OF YOU!!!

Edited December 25, 2008 by uscbigdawg

[Religious Shooter]

You can go to a 1000 (or specifically 13 mils) with the Hawk if you use the turret.

In order to get to a 1000 yards you noted that you needed 13 or so mils. The Hawk only goes to 8 mils on the reticle. To get to a 1000 you would need to at least click up 5 mils using the turret and then use the bottom of the reticle.

So for example I run a .308 with 168's at 2600 fps zeroed at 100 yards. I have to engage targets at say 500, then 600, then 1000. Exbal says I have to adjust for elevation using:

3.50 mils for the 500 yard target.

4.75 mils for the 600 yard target.

11.60 mils for the 1000 yard target.

For the 500 (3.5 mils) I would bracket the target using the 3.4 and 3.6 lines on the reticle.

For the 600 (4.75 mils) I would just hold a tick high on the 4.8 line.

But for the 1000 (11.6 mils) I can't use the reticle (alone) because it stops at 8 mils. I would have to dial 11.6-8= 3.6 mils up and then use the 8 mil line to shoot the 1000 yard target.

I don't think that's ideal as I prefer in only using the reticle for my adjustments.

Using my load and using the reticle for adjustments I can only go up to 820 or so yards with the Hawk. You would need something like a .243 pill at 3100 fps to make it to a 1000 using only 8 mils of adjustment.

[kgunz11]

You can go to a 1000 (or specifically 13 mils) with the Hawk if you use the turret.

In order to get to a 1000 yards you noted that you needed 13 or so mils. The Hawk only goes to 8 mils on the reticle. To get to a 1000 you would need to at least click up 5 mils using the turret and then use the bottom of the reticle.

So for example I run a .308 with 168's at 2600 fps zeroed at 100 yards. I have to engage targets at say 500, then 600, then 1000. Exbal says I have to adjust for elevation using:

3.50 mils for the 500 yard target.

4.75 mils for the 600 yard target.

11.60 mils for the 1000 yard target.

For the 500 (3.5 mils) I would bracket the target using the 3.4 and 3.6 lines on the reticle.

For the 600 (4.75 mils) I would just hold a tick high on the 4.8 line.

But for the 1000 (11.6 mils) I can't use the reticle (alone) because it stops at 8 mils. I would have to dial 11.6-8= 3.6 mils up and then use the 8 mil line to shoot the 1000 yard target.

I don't think that's ideal as I prefer in only using the reticle for my adjustments.

Using my load and using the reticle for adjustments I can only go up to 820 or so yards with the Hawk. You would need something like a .243 pill at 3100 fps to make it to a 1000 using only 8 mils of adjustment.

The 168 gr bullets in a .308 don't work to 1000 yards unless you are WAYYYYYYYY above sea level, period.

My .308 load gets to 1k in 26 MOA or 7.6 mils.

Horus scopes aren't made of a quality suitable for dialing, Dennis will tell you that himself.

Those that get off the square range know where it's at. Horus reticles are awesome, just get it in the right scope, go USO or S&B and have the reticle installed. I like the Horus reticle, but I prefer my MOA reticle Nightforce scopes. When I travel 1000's of miles to shoot a match crawling through brush and mountain, I want to know my equipment can keep up, no matter what.

[Scooter]

The 1 year warranty on the Horus scopes don't exactly inspire confidence in their products. Even the cheap Falcon Menace scope comes with a 5 year warranty.

[kgunz11]

The 1 year warranty on the Horus scopes don't exactly inspire confidence in their products. Even the cheap Falcon Menace scope comes with a 5 year warranty.

Have you ever tried to get them on the phone or get them to respond to an email?

[ShooterSteve]

Hey Rich, the 168SMK is specifically designed to shoot 600yds. I'm not saying it won't go to 1000 so ya'll don't have to start the hate mail, but it was specifically designed for 600yd shooting. You should try the 175s, which are designed for 1000yds. A 308 is very marginal to get it there and keep it supersonic, and as accurate as it needs to be. Once again ya'll don't have to start with the hate mail about a 308 being everything you need for 1000 yds because it WILL work, it is just not the optimum caliber. The marines were forced to choose it back in the day because they were restricted to ammo that was standard in the field. So if the SHTF, in a pinch they could use M60 ammo. While they were limited, guys from the teams were shooting 300Win mag. Gottta go, wife is hollering..more later

[uscbigdawg]

Oh...I know how to get the 308 to 1000. I've got the "super secret" loads from some friends (not really). 175gr. SMK's at about 2650 or 155gr. Scenars at about 2950. Varget powder. Lapua or once fired Black Hills. Federal Benchrest primers.

It's just down to the glass and what angle base. I'm pretty sure I'm going either Leupy (waiting on a short run of M4 LR/T's 4.5-14x w/ Illum. TMR and M2 knobs). It's either that or the same with M1 knobs or a Nikon Monarch X.

Rich

[Scooter]

FYI, Leupold have come to their senses and make a M1 knob in .1 Mil adjustments, instead of the .05 Mil.

[kgunz11]

Oh...I know how to get the 308 to 1000. I've got the "super secret" loads from some friends (not really). 175gr. SMK's at about 2650 or 155gr. Scenars at about 2950. Varget powder. Lapua or once fired Black Hills. Federal Benchrest primers.

It's just down to the glass and what angle base. I'm pretty sure I'm going either Leupy (waiting on a short run of M4 LR/T's 4.5-14x w/ Illum. TMR and M2 knobs). It's either that or the same with M1 knobs or a Nikon Monarch X.

Rich

My 155 Berger load is traveling 3050fps out of my 26" Broughton bbl. I'm using Win brass with Fed GM 210M primers and Varget. It's a nice flat shooting load, but the 190 SMK still beats it in the wind. For shooting F-class I'd choose the 190. For UKD tactical style shooting I go with the 155. It allows a little margin of error in judging the distance.

You are on a solid path with the Leupold 4.5x14 scope. Another good choice on a budget would be a used 3.5x15 NF.

NF has some good stuff to be released at SHOT show '09, including some new knobs, but I can't talk about all that.

I echo everything Steve said about the 168 and the 175 grain bullets. Where I live, the 168 wont do it at all, but the 175 is pretty decent. At Ft. Benning (250' ASL), the 168's keyhole at 1k IF they even make it on the paper. When they go subsonic around 925 yards the tumble eratically and unreliably, but they are hard to beat on the reduced 600 yard course.

[uscbigdawg]

Yep. Heard the same thing about the 168's. As soon as they break out of subsonic it's a crap shoot as to where they go. You'll have one go dead center at 1k (or relatively center) and then the other one miss a 6' square target.

Scott - Didn't know that they offered M1 knobs in mils. I'd only see them in MOA. M1 = .25 MOA w/ no zero stop. M2 = .5 MOA w/ zero stop. M3 = 1 MOA w/ zero stop. The M2 knobs for a long time were (off the shelf) only available in the 3.5-10x LR/T Illum. TMR. I wanted a little more power though and CS Gunworks as some special runs of these. I hear though the only downside is that they do track "exactly" .5 MOA.

I'll have to bug them about getting M1 knobs in mils.

Rich

[uscbigdawg]

I use the 5.11 watch with the Ballistic Calculator built into it. I just haven't put the time into it to see how it matches up with real life. Since you put all of the load data into it which is your actual bullet info, I am hoping that it is pretty close. It does match up very very closly to the info over at eskimo.com. Speaking of scopes, it is crazy how much things have gone up price wise. I have a Leupold 6.5x20-40mm. Has a target dot and target turrets. My wife lost a bet with me and that was what I won. Tax and all out the door it was about $325. Of course that was 1986, but jeesh has stuff gone up that much for todays cost to be so high? The thing I love most about accurate rifles and good scopes is go to the range with blank cardstock. Walk down with your buddies to put up targets and put up the card stock. You will get a lot of snickering about how you are a dumbass for not having anything on it to shoot at. When you get back just put a round into the center of the paper. There will be more snickering about how anyone can hit a stupid 8x11 sheet of paper, but the laughing will stop when you start shooting at your first bullet hole and you are hitting it!

So as Steve said above, he hasn't had a chance to ring out his 5.11 "sniper" watch. Anyone have experience with these? I still plan on getting a PDA, but Santa was good to me this year and I've been wanting a new watch. It'd be nice if this was worth getting as (ANOTHER) gadget.

Thanks,

Rich

[Scooter]

Didn't know that they offered M1 knobs in mils.

There are a couple in the catalog that are M1 but .05 Mils which is way too small. On Sniper's Hide, someone just got M1 knobs installe from their custom shop that were .1 Mil.

[kgunz11]

Rich, on the 5.11 watch, it pretty decent, but very rudimentary at the same time. The watch is not something I'd wear for daily use as it's kinda big and bulky. If you're going to spend that much change, you can get a really nice PDA that will do TONS more stuff.

[uscbigdawg]

As for the bulk, I'm kind of a big guy, so that's a non-issue. Just seeing if there was a value to the software. I'd still get a PDA, but I guess just looking for a decent excuse for some gadgets.

Rich

ETA: Totally serious question. Can I load the Exbal/ATrag software into a smartphone?

Edited December 26, 2008 by uscbigdawg

[ShooterSteve]

Hey Rich, the watch is big, but I dove for the Navy and was used to wearing the big Sako's all the time, so big watches are sorta normal for me. If you wear one you must beware of the old saying of "big watch, little di..." but we won't go there. I think the black shoes that said that were just jelous anyway... When you show it to people who are long range shooters and have never seen one, they simply freak out. I give it a solid 10 on the coolness scale, so I can live with it occasionally bumping the door as I go through. One thing that is a total PIA is the watch band, but 5.11 really did their job on it. This band will never come off by accident, it is actually a little hard to take off. This is a huge plus for real life situations, but a pain for takeing it off at night before you go to bed. After a while you learn a little trick to get the little thing to release. I don't know the name of it, but after you buckle it, the tail goes through the little loop, just like any other watch, but the design as a little point on it which grabs the loop and won't let it back through very easily. It is perfect for securely holding it on. One final thing, and I am nitpicking here. The crystal is flat and very reflective. It will shine reflected light very easily. For tactical use, it would have been much better to have a curved crystal like a rolex to reduce flash and glare. All in all I would be happy to buy it again if I have too.. One more hint, a while back, 5.11 had some with bad batteries and had to recall them and replace the batteries. Since they were no longer new, the price was WAY reduced, but I don't know if they have any of those left.

[uscbigdawg]

Totally understand. Being Army Aviation, we all have the Sunto's and appreciate large, secure watches.

Rich

[sfinney]

Gee, all the Air Force gave us was Casio G-Shocks.

[uscbigdawg]

'cept y'all got them for free. We had to buy ours.

Rich

[uscbigdawg]

Okay...got the glass resolved.

Leupold Mk4 LR/T 4.5-14x w/ their TMR reticle and M1 knobs (1/4 MOA). It's a good scope that will go a long time. I do have a Horus 4-16x with their USMC-H1 reticle on standby though. I have a set of Warne bases & rings. The only downside is the base as it's not a MOA base and shooting 308 to 1k I think I'll need it. So, I'm going with an EGW base and probably the rings too. Any experience?

Question on some other accessories as need to haves vs. want to haves.

- Kestrel wind meter (looking at a 3500 or 4500...whichever has density altitude)

- Bi-Pod (I know I need one. I've got a bunch of Harris' but any model or add-on in particular)?

- PDA w/ software (if so which software or just print a dope card for the elevation, temp, etc. that day?)

I have a drag bag, pack and scope/muzzle cover that I can snatch from my GAP. Other than that, is there something I'm missing?

Reloading next:

This will be my reloading setup for 308:

- Dillon XL 650 w/ neck sizing only die and Redding Competition Seating Die

- Brass will be once fired Black Hills or Cor-Bon

- Primers: Federal 210M (any issues with these in a Dillon?)

- Powder: Varget

- Bullets: Sierra 175gr. SMK's or Lapua 155gr. Scenars. I might try the 175gr. Berger VLD's too.

- I figure I'll clean the primer pockets out

- Meplat the bullets (I'll consider kgunz11's pointer instead depending on price)

- Do I need all that comparator and concentricity garbage in Sinclair? I don't think so (haven't had a chance to talk to Voigt yet)?

Top feeding for now, until I finish some basic work on the rifle (trigger job, bedding, recrown and thread the barrel) and then I'll throw in a Badger/AICS mag system. Hmmm....am I forgetting anything?

Thanks,

Rich

[kgunz11]

Okay...got the glass resolved.

Leupold Mk4 LR/T 4.5-14x w/ their TMR reticle and M1 knobs (1/4 MOA). It's a good scope that will go a long time. I do have a Horus 4-16x with their USMC-H1 reticle on standby though. I have a set of Warne bases & rings. The only downside is the base as it's not a MOA base and shooting 308 to 1k I think I'll need it. So, I'm going with an EGW base and probably the rings too. Any experience?

That's a great scope. With a 20 MOA base you'll be able to get to 1k with ease.

Question on some other accessories as need to haves vs. want to haves.

- Kestrel wind meter (looking at a 3500 or 4500...whichever has density altitude) They both have it, but go ahead and get the 4500, a Kestrel is a MUST have if you plan to shoot long range.

- Bi-Pod (I know I need one. I've got a bunch of Harris' but any model or add-on in particular)? If you have an abundance of table muscle you might need a 9-12 but most of us use the Harris BRM-S. It's the 6-9" benchrest model with swivel and notched legs.

- PDA w/ software (if so which software or just print a dope card for the elevation, temp, etc. that day?) Get an inexpensive Palm. I will hook you up with more software than you can use. I can also give you the crash course on how to make it all work without the unneeded features aggravating you. I have my programs on my Palm in Palm OS and on my cell phone in Windows OS. I'm never without my rifle or my data. I also recommend making a quick card to go in your rear scope cap. Use the temperature that is an average for your AO. For me, I use 70* and I can calculate off of that for varying temps. After about 20,000 rounds thru a .308 in the last 4 years I can tell you for a FACT that most all powders are around 1 MOA per 10* at 1000 yards. Varget is one of the better ones at just under 1 MOA, Re15 is straight up 1 MOA, and 4064 is about 1.25 MOA per 10*. I have the data to back up those claims shot over thousands of rounds to 1000 yards.

I have a drag bag, pack and scope/muzzle cover that I can snatch from my GAP. Other than that, is there something I'm missing?

Reloading next:

This will be my reloading setup for 308:

- Dillon XL 650 w/ neck sizing only die and Redding Competition Seating Die John Whidden has won 2 National Championships loading on a 650. He weighs every powder charge though as the Dillon isn't very consistent with rifle powders.

- Brass will be once fired Black Hills or Cor-Bon Cor-Bon uses Winchester or Lapua brass, depends on what they can get at the time. Black Hills brass is also Winchester. I prefer Winchester brass personally and have many reasons why.

- Primers: Federal 210M (any issues with these in a Dillon?) There is no better primer to use in a .308 IMO. Buy in bulk, they can become scarce really quick.

- Powder: Varget I got away from Varget for a while because I was sick and tired of lot to lot inconsistencies. I use it again now, but I buy 2 8lb jugs at the same time with matching lot numbers. For 155gr to 175gr bullets it's the better powder. For 190gr bullets the Re15 trumps it in every way.

- Bullets: Sierra 175gr. SMK's or Lapua 155gr. Scenars. I might try the 175gr. Berger VLD's too. We all tried the Lapua Scenar down here and all of us got flyers that were a real PITA. John Whidden hooked me up with the Berger bullets and groups got better and more consistent. Since then, the rest of my friends have also switched over to the Berger bullets, and we're winning with them!

- I figure I'll clean the primer pockets out In .308, all I do is cut the primer pockets to a consistent depth, debur and uniform the flash hole and inside and outside neck chamfer. The flash hole is pretty important since most companies punch the hole, Laupa drills it.

- Meplat the bullets (I'll consider kgunz11's pointer instead depending on price) It's not mine, it's John Whiddens. What if I told you I could make your .308 shoot like a 30-06? The bullet pointer does that. You're not going to gain velocity, but your bullet will perform better at the current velocity due to superior ballistic coefficients and less drag. 2 MOA flatter at 1000 yards by just pointing the bullet? You damn right I will! It's also much better in the wind too! National champions swear by it!!!

- Do I need all that comparator and concentricity garbage in Sinclair? I don't think so (haven't had a chance to talk to Voigt yet)? If you're going to shoot BR, yes. They will take you from .25 MOA to shooting groups in the teens. I suggest for tactical comps spend your time loading quality handloads and shooting them to learn to dope the wind.

Top feeding for now, until I finish some basic work on the rifle (trigger job, bedding, recrown and thread the barrel) and then I'll throw in a Badger/AICS mag system. Hmmm....am I forgetting anything? I could go on and on about the advantages of the Badger detachable bottom metal, most importantly it is the freedom to load ammo much longer than you can in an internal box magazine. Get the Badger bottom or just drop your barreled action into an AICS or Mcree Precision stock.

Don't forget to get yourself a good data book. Write everything down and take lots of notes. Know your elevation, temps, humidity, and altitude. As you get better you can alsop start recording your wind speed and direction.

You also want to pick up a mildot master to keep in your data pack. It makes for short work in ranging targets with a mildot reticle. I have ballistics software that's even easier. I don't mind sharing my phone number either, you're welcome to call and I will share what I can with you. There is a lot of misinformation on the internet, tons of keyboard commandos spreading lies they read here and there. When I don't know, I'll tell ya I don't know, and I'll tell you what I know or have done in testing or learned from experience or I have watched someone do.

Thanks,

Rich

[Religious Shooter]

- Bi-Pod (I know I need one. I've got a bunch of Harris' but any model or add-on in particular)?

You probably have these already but I would get a 6-9" and a 9-13". S-Model with the leg notch. I've found the 9-13 was a better "field" bipod than the 6-9.

Put a rail on the bottom of your handguard and get some of the Arredondo (or Larue/ARMS if you have more $$$) QD bi-pod adapters to make life easy. I've found the need to switch between the bipods during matches.

http://www.arredondoaccessories.com/catego...1qdeav&GID=

If you don't already have them get the KMW Pod-Locs.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/Pro...e=KMW%20POD-LOC

- PDA w/ software (if so which software or just print a dope card for the elevation, temp, etc. that day?)

I would stay away from PALM based PDA's. To me it looks like a dying OS.

I have ATrag2X ($200) and Exbal. If I could only have one I would get Exbal with the PC and PDA software ($122.50 for both!). ATrag comes on a chip. Some low-cost Palm PDA's don't have a port.

http://www.perry-systems.com/

If you already have a lap-top you can go ghetto and use it in the field instead of a PDA.

I would use pre-printed cards as the primary. I think they are faster to use... you can put notes on them... they don't overheat (on a 90 degree day my HP overheated and shutdown)... etc.

I have a drag bag, pack and scope/muzzle cover that I can snatch from my GAP. Other than that, is there something I'm missing?

A good LRF that will do 1000+ yards?

Big-ass bolt knob?

Angle measuring device?

http://triadtactical.com/store/item/2jrcg/...ly_306-73A.html

Rear monopod or sand sock?

http://www.ctkprecision.com/index.asp?Page...OD&ProdID=7

http://triadtactical.com/store/item/2jra1/...Quick_Knob.html

Shemagh? (to cover up your rifle/optic at the line... to use as rear support... etc.)

Different feet for the bipod? (for dirt/gravel)

http://triadtactical.com/store/item/2o3ux/...Large_Foot.html

[uscbigdawg]

kgunz11

- Thanks for confirming my math on a MOA base to 1k. I'm probably going to go EGW for everything 'cause well it's George and he doesn't make anything that short on awesomeness.

- PM inbound. I have an OLD Palm Pilot and since it's not doing much, I figure it'll be as good as any for my kit.

- Good to know on the brass. I figure that I'd just shoot BH or Cor-Bon in my rifle to "fire form" it, trim, in/out neck chamfer, clean and neck size.

- Bullets. Good to know. I'm a bullet whore, so I'll try all three.

- On weighing every charge, I don't see that happening. However, my 650 in 223 loads to a SD of < 7. I'm getting .25 MOA groups out of my 223 with 69gr. SMK's and Varget, so I'll do the same tricks to the new powder measure in 308.

- No AICS for me. I'm a McMillan guy through and through. The rifle has a B&C stock now w/ aluminum bedding block. It'll get bed though further by my local rifle 'smith. Trying to keep this build lean and mean and build it up over stages as opposed to my GAP Crusader which is the "Gucci" rifle.

- I'll look more into your pointer doo-hicky.

Gordon

- I was thinking the same thing of adding a rail on the bottom and have multiple bi-pods for given field conditions.

- I'll definitely pick up one of the KMW locks. Been looking for those.

- On a LRF. Other than the Swarovski, any recommendations?

- Big ass bolt knob is in route (it lets you know the rifle is tactical)

- I suppose I'll get one of the angle indicators and a level bubble or two

- Dude. I've got the sweetest rear bag. I'm keepin' that on the down low until it shows up though.

- Shemagh. Yeah...mine's official Afghani.

- As for different feet, I doubt it.

Thanks gentlemen.

Rich

Edited January 7, 2009 by uscbigdawg

[Chris]

Are there any good ballistics programs for Windows Mobile 6 powered phones?