Was ist ze rule?

[Bear23]

Shooter at the line, after LAMR, indexes on targets (which we can do per US rules) has an AD.

I couldn't find an exact rule to put this under. Obviously unsafe gun handling, I don't have the rule book in front of me. Any ideas where exactly this falls?

[HoMiE]

10.4.3 Ashot which occurs while preparing to or while actually loading,

reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired

during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.7 (If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster)

10.4.9 covers exception if something broke with the gun resulting in AD.

Unsafe gun handling...

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading,

reloading, or unloading.

If not, DQ.

Edited July 12, 2007 by HoMiE

[bgary]

There isn't an exact rule, but there are a number of them that get "interpreted" to cover it (badly, in my opinion).

10.4.3 says "A shot which occurs while loading...." Some would DQ the shooter under that, stating that since the shooter has been told to "load and make ready", and has not yet been given a start signal, any shot which occurs "must be" while loading. Even if he is clearly *done* loading the gun (mag is in, round in chamber, both hands on the grip, whatever).

Most others say simply that it should be a DQ under the broad heading of "unsafe gun handling", even though there is no example in the rulebook that covers it. The argument is that "you're not supposed to be shooting yet, so it *must* have been unsafe".

I [personally] disagree with both of those. I think the LAMR authorizes the shooter to handle a loaded firearm, and if he breaks a shot that is not *otherwise* a DQ (eg, doesn't go over the berm, doesn't hit the ground within 3 meters, wasn't moving, wasn't in the act of loading/reloading, wasn't clearing a malf), I believe the rules do not support a DQ for this.

Procedural for a "premature start"? Sure. But not a DQ.

Put it a different way. Let's say that, after he is done loading the gun, the shooter carefully, intentionally, deliberately aims at a target and breaks a shot. Nothing "accidental" about it, and the hit is a perfect "A". Should the shooter be DQ'd? I would argue *no* - that the only difference between that shot and a shot after the beep is... the beep. There is nothing "unsafe" about that shot. The shooter is in the course of fire, under the ROs command, and will be shooting at that same target under the same conditions in a couple of seconds. The only difference is that the shooter has not yet been given the command to start shooting. (although, some might argue it was unsportsmanlike. That's a different issue)

Note that I am not saying it is a good thing and should not be penalized... only that it is a DQ that is (IMHO) not currently supported in the rules.

$.02

Bruce

Edited July 12, 2007 by bgary

[D.Hayden]

Bruce.. nice post.

It's always cool to look at thngs from a different viewpoint...

[Scott R]

It looks like the new rules will cover that situation.

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a firearm. This includes any shot fired during the

procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and 8.3.7.

[Bear23]

Thanks Bruce,

When i went through the book at home, i couldn't find a specific rule which covers this situation. There was a provision for unload and show clear, but not for LAMR.. I had just assumed the shooter would be categorized as still under the LAMR command to the 'beep'

In your opinion, does the new rule 10.4.3 cover the situation well? And thanks to all that have replied.

[HoMiE]

Since he was index on the target, there was nothning *unsafe* about that shot. He was lucky in that regard. What about the next time it happens?

Sure, there isn't a specific rule for ADs after LAMR while taking sight picture, I don't think a DQ is too harsh for unsafe gun handling.

As far as deliberatley taking a shot, I would consider that unsportsman-like conduct and that is grounds for DQ also.

[GentlemanJim]

Am I wrong? I thaught you could only do a sight picture before LAMR?

JIM

[HoMiE]

Am I wrong? I thaught you could only do a sight picture before LAMR?

JIM

You can take a sight picture once you are given the LAMR command. Wheter or not you want to load firearm is up to you. Some of my local clubs don't allow you to take sight picture with loaded gun.

[bgary]

In your opinion, does the new rule 10.4.3 cover the situation well?

yes

You can take a sight picture once you are given the LAMR command.

Correct. In the USPSA rulebook, there is no rule against taking a sight picture with a loaded gun.

Some of my local clubs don't allow you to take sight picture with loaded gun.

Hmmm.... that's called a "local rule", and runs into issues when you look at 3.3.1 Unless there is permission from the USPSA president, or a legal requirement, clubs really aren't allowed to "invent rules". It is either a USPSA match, according to USPSA rules.... or it isn't.

Bruce

[herky]

"It is either a USPSA match, according to USPSA rules....or it isn't."

Amen to that!!!

[HoMiE]

Hmmm.... that's called a "local rule", and runs into issues when you look at 3.3.1 Unless there is permission from the USPSA president, or a legal requirement, clubs really aren't allowed to "invent rules". It is either a USPSA match, according to USPSA rules.... or it isn't.

Bruce

True, I didn't ask the MD if that was the case. I was just told that by a RO once while taking a sight picture with loaded gun. So I don't load the gun before sight picture while that RO is RO-ing.

[mactiger]

Once LAMR is given, you are allowed, per the rules, to take a loaded sight picture. I agree with my newly-minted CRO student, Bruce, , that a DQ in this situation is not covered by the rules. In fact, it's specifically NOT a DQ per 8.6.4:

8.6.4 In the event that a competitor inadvertently begins shooting prematurely

(“false start”), the Range Officer will, as soon as possible,

stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has

been restored.

As long as no other criteria for AD or UGH are involved, this is simply a "false start", and the competitor gets a restart.

Troy

[AZ38super]

Here is what is in the current rules:

8.7 Sight Pictures and Range Inspection

8.7.1 Competitors are always prohibited from taking a sight picture

with a loaded firearm prior to the start signal. Violation will

result in a warning for the first occurrence and one procedural

January 2004 Edition Rule Book • 57

penalty for each subsequent occurrence in the same match.

US8.7.1 Not applicable.

8.7.2 If match organizers also prohibit taking a sight picture with an

unloaded firearm prior to the start signal, competitors must be

advised in the written stage briefing. Violation will result in a

warning for the first occurrence and one procedural penalty for

each subsequent occurrence in the same match.

US8.7.2 Not applicable.

8.7.3 When permitted, competitors taking a sight picture with an

unloaded firearm prior to the start signal must only do so on a

single target, to verify that their sights are prepared as required.

Competitors who test a targeting sequence or a shooting position

while taking a sight picture will incur one procedural penalty per

occurrence.

US8.7.3 Not applicable.

8.7.4 Competitors are prohibited from using any sighting aid (e.g. the

whole or part of an imitation or replica firearm, any part of a real

firearm including any accessories thereof etc.), except for their

own hands, while conducting their inspection (“walkthrough”) of

a course of fire. Violations will incur one procedural penalty per

occurrence (also see Rule 10.5.1).

8.7.5 No person is permitted to enter or move through a course of fire

without the prior approval of a Range Officer assigned to that

course of fire or the Range Master. Violators will incur a warning

for the first offense but may be subject to the provisions of

Section 10.6 for subsequent offenses.

US8.7.5 No person is permitted to enter or move through a course of fire

without the prior approval of a Range Officer assigned to that

course of fire or the Range Master. Violators may be subject to

the provisions of Section 10.6 for willful offenses.

While it does not state the penalty for a shot fired during the sight picture the gun is supposed to be unloaded so then you would go to unsafe gun handling.

[D.Hayden]

IPSC vs USPSA

US 8.7.1 Not applicable.

Edited July 12, 2007 by BerKim

[lynn jones]

very interesting!

lynn

[AikiDale]

Once LAMR is given, you are allowed, per the rules, to take a loaded sight picture. I agree with my newly-minted CRO student, Bruce, , that a DQ in this situation is not covered by the rules. In fact, it's specifically NOT a DQ per 8.6.4:

8.6.4 In the event that a competitor inadvertently begins shooting prematurely

("false start"), the Range Officer will, as soon as possible,

stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has

been restored.

As long as no other criteria for AD or UGH are involved, this is simply a "false start", and the competitor gets a restart.

Troy

8.6.4 covers a competitor inadvertently shooting prematurely. How about an intentional sight in shot after LAMR during the loaded gun sight picture? Are we good on those until the new rule book is effective?

[mactiger]

As far as I know, yes. How would you tell the difference?

Troy

[HoMiE]

So, under current rule book, no DQ, no penalty, just tape target and restart CoF? Under 2008 rules same thing?

[mactiger]

Under the 2008 rules, it's a DQ. Not so currently.

Troy

[richardschennberg]

Hopefully it will also mean than no one who was present or who has read this thread will ever "dry fire" with a loaded gun!