New to production

[Smooth is Fast]

I shoot mostly Lim-10, but also shoot open and Limited. I was thinking about getting a gun for production and the P7 is at the top of my list. I chose the M13 because it loads 13 rounds, although I would only load 10 according to production rules and regs I believe. It seems to me that the M8 is more available, I just wish I could some how stuff 10+1 in it so I would be on par with the other guys. Will this capacity issue be a problem if I go for the M8? Is there any fix?

I'd also like to know if anyone is selling, and also any feedback you may have regarding my choice of this pistol for my purpose. Thank you

[John Thompson]

You'll want a gun with at least ten in a mag.  The M13 will work just fine but you need to check to see if it's production legal.

[spook]

It's in the approved list, so I guess that would make it legal. I saw your post on parkcities (at least i think that was you). To be sure, I would ask the RO's on the IROA FAQ.

The P7 is a nice choice, but know what you're doing. Throwing hard to find $100 mags around on concrete floors or mud can be a bit frustrating.

[Smooth is Fast]

Yea, I hear you on the mag thing. I am thinking of ordering some P7 M10 mags and testing them out since their cheaper, easier to come by, and people say they'll work. If I have any problems, I might fit them with M13 springs and followers. We'll see. I'm still trying to close the deal on the P7 itself, lol. Do you have any experiance with the M10 mags in the M13? Thanks. Oh, and by the way, that was me on Park Cities.

[Duane Thomas]

"If I have any problems, I might fit them with M13 springs and followers."

Be careful on that one. Modifying 10-shot magazines produced after 1994 to hold more rounds is illegal.

[Smooth is Fast]

I wouldn't be modifying them to shoot more than 10 really since it is an M10 .40 cal mag that will still hold 10 .40 cals. But I wouldn'tbe loading .40 init, I'd be loading 9mm, which would consequently fit 13, but still be considered a 10 round 40 mag. Did that make any sense? Now, I don't know if what I just said is still legal, seems like it would be a gray area. Now if I put the slightly different follower in, the M10 mag will not increase it's .40 capacity, nor will it increase the capacity of 9mm you can stuff in it. The change would only be to assist it in feeding. Would the change make it too similar to the M13 mag, making it illegal? Or would the fact that it is still technically a 10 round M10 mag make it within the boundries of the law?

All of the above is meant as more of a question then a lecture. I am only speculating, and really would like you guys who have more experiance than me to tell me what the situation really is. The above was just my guess work. Thanks guys.

[Tom Freeman]

I tried the P7 in production, but the reloads killed me.  My Glock and Steyr are a lot easier to reload.

The short sight radius is another weak point of the P7.

9x19 in M10 mags works fine and they are a lot cheaper to boot.

So far it looks like there is no one majik gun for Production.  Para, Glock and Sig are ruling the roost right now.

[spook]

SIFast, I wouldn't mind about that. Put ten rounds in for USPSA and if you shoot IPSC in some foreign country, the government won't be there to bother you.

Tom, i think the fixed barrel and the fact that I can easily duplicate the 1" group 30 yard factory test target makes up for the short sight radius (which by the way isn't that short at all).

Reloads are cool, cause you can shoot to slide lock and not have a slower reload.

I think the fact that there's no magic gun makes production a nice division, cause you can choose what you WANT to shoot in stead of shooting what everybody else is shooting (1911 or Glock .40's).

Cheers

Oh BTW, you could also put a spacer in the mag to make sure it only holds ten.

(Edited by spook at 9:16 pm on Oct. 30, 2002)

[Carlos]

Tom Freeman: you mentioned the Steyr; I bought an M-9 to try in production - it has a grip that is closer to the bore axis than anything else out there so I thought it would provide an advantage; BTW, it is nearly identical in size to my Glock 19 (thus, it does not have the sight radius or size advantage of the G-34 or G-17. However, I have run into 3 snags with the Steyr:

1) 4 out of my 6 mags will not hold the slide open on the last shot - had this problem w/ waek Magtec as well as very hot Norma/Vihtavouri subgun ammo.

2) The mag release is small and has a very stiff spring

3) Mags hang up at back of magwell - they catch on the cart. rim, the feed lip, etc.

Know of any production legal fixes to these problems? Even without these problems, the Steyr does not appear to be the "magic bullet" I had hoped for; a G-17 is on order.

[MarkL]

I shoot a P7M8 in production and it is not the reloads that stop my quest for greatness.  It reloads as quick if not quicker than most guns out there.  For most classifier stages, which typically seem to be low count stages, the 8 round capacity doesn't hurt.  For the high round count stages, an extra mag change is not that much of a problem when you can change on the move, however I find it to be a hinderance when a stage is setup with a 10 shot portal, then move to another 10 shot portal.  That hurts.

[Smooth is Fast]

Well guys, I finally picked up the P7M13 (13 round capacity). Very nice little gun. Basically no muzzle flip at all, due to such a high bore axis, and extremly easy to point. I was able to get 3 mags with it, so I can load 10 in each for production, making it 30 rounds. NOT ENOUGH! I figure 5 mags, maybe six so I'll have a spare, will be good. Now I've just got to find mags to buy. I won't be using it in competition too soon anyways because I am shooting Area 2 this week in Lim-10, but as soon as I do use it, I'll let you guys know how it went.

P.S. Anyone have any M13 mags they want to sell?

[BSeevers]

The HK has a gas system which also reduces recoil. In the pre Production and pre GM days there was a good HK shooter. GM class was added to separate the pros from the rest. There was a good M shooting one of these. In those days you were real strange if you shot a Glock. Everyone shot a 1911. He shook some people up with that gun. I think he even had a Ernie Hill holster. Look for mags in Shotgun News or Gun List.

[shred]

I remember hearing that some of the very first comp guns (hicap, even) were built on P7's due to the fixed barrel making them easy to attach and make work.

[Duane Thomas]

Just my personal experience but I've always found the P7 a choppy gun to fire, with more recoil than you'd expect from an all-steel 9mm with such a low bore axis. The reason is its operating system. Far from "soaking up the recoil," the way the P7 works is that the operating system locks the slide and barrel together at the instant the gun fires. Having the slide and barrel locked together at this point means you get hit with every last little bit of recoil.

[Smooth is Fast]

Okay, now that I have shot the gun some more, I am noticing a few things. First, and not a surprise to anyone, this thing gets way too hot! I use  slide glide to lube my guns. Now normally you can really apply quite a bit since it does not seep into parts of the gun that it doesn't belong like conventional lubes. It also really cushions the action, so much so that it helps to prevent hammer follow on competition guns with extremly light triggers. With slide glide applied liberally, I noticed that the slide speed was still so fast and relentless that my arm would get sprayed a little with boiling hot lube. Ouch! This thing really cycles.

Now I know I can't do anything about the heat, so I lessened the amount of slide glide to prevent hot sprays in the future. My next order of business was to shoot the P7 side by side with my Limited 10 custimized (by me) 1911. I was impressed the first day with my P7, but when I shot it side by side with my 1911, I was a little dissapointed. Here is why. My .45 shoots a ton more flat than the P7. I really noticed the P7's recoil when compared to my 1911, and that dissapointed me. I figured, 9mm, high bore axis, gas retard system, fixed barrell... So why is this? Am I being unreasonable?

So what do I do? I was thinking that I wanted to cushion the slide a bit. I was going to take a coil or 2 or 3 off the recoil spring, or buy a lighter one. Is this a bad idea? Does anyone have any experiance with this? I was also thinking that in competition, I would use as slack a load as I could make and still keep the thing cycling. Those were a few of my thoughts, tell me what you think, and any other things I might do, or that you've seen done. Like I said earlier, am I just asking too much?

[Duane Thomas]

You're asking too much. Sell the P7 and get yourself a real gun.

(Edited by Duane Thomas at 9:35 pm on Nov. 12, 2002)

[Smooth is Fast]

Duane, I suspected that much. Not that the P7 is a bad gun, but just not the right gun for what I am trying to do. Okay, some more help then please. I like the Springfield XD series. I particularly like the small grips on them because I have VERY small hands. I know a lot of people use Glocks, and I know they are great guns, but even the 17 has a bulky grip, especially compared to the XD. I would like to go 9mm, but I also think it may be better to go with a 5 inch or longer barrell. But there is no XD 5 inch in 9mm, only 40 and 357. Damn! Please chime in on this. Perhaps the shorter XD would work fine, or maybe the long one in 40 would be flatter bgecause of it's length. Maybe there is a different option out there that I have not considered. Anything.....

[Trader]

Springfield will be doing an XD 5" in 9mm

[Smooth is Fast]

Really? When will this happen?

[spook]

SIF, It took me quite a while to get used to my M13. It's definately not an everyman's gun.

Use very little oil. And when you do, only on the rails. Otherwise it'll heat up.

Take your time to get used to it if you're just disappointed that it doesn't shoot like your 1911. Going from a P7 to a 1911 would disappoint too, and would also take time.

[Smooth is Fast]

I actually had a chance to shoot a gun that I liked a whole lot for production. I shot the Glock 34, and wow, what a difference. 5.32 inch barrell, very positive feel, simple gun. I am pretty sure this is the gun I want to go with. I am actually trying to sell or trade the P7 off. I like the XD too, It just seems to me that the Glock is so proven, so flat, lots of parts and accessories for it, comes in 9mm with such a long barrell... PLEASE CHIME IN AND TELL ME YOUR OPINIONS

And if anyone here wants a P7, I am looking for the Glock 34, and I am looking for a new limited gun, prefer SV...

[Flexmoney]

SIF,

Now you are in my neck of the woods.  

Do you reload?  (If not, start soon.  It will pay off).

If you do reload, a 40 caliber Glock will work great for both Production and Limited.  I shoot a minor load in 40 that is just the ticket for Production.

And, for all the reason you just listed...the Glock is a great starting platform for Limited.  Plus, you will be using all the same controls...no switching from one trigger to another.

[vluc]

SIF, i use the 34...wonderful pistol.  Everything flex said is right on.

Good choice.

[Steve Moneypenny]

SIF, I have been shooting production for over a year with a beretta 92G Elite 2. i loved the gun, and still do, starting to shoot limited now, i picked up a Para LDA 40 cal, very smooth operating gun, if your already shooting a 1911 why not, the DA trigger is pretty smooth, kind of like slapping the trigger in a normal 1911.

As for the glock, yeah, very popular gun, but it has a VERY different pointability than the SV your thinking about for limited. I am a firm believer in one weapons system gives you your maximum benifit in training. When changing guns it takes me a while to dial in to the other gun, and a little longer to reach similar proficiency with the other gun.

Lighter loads and Ligher recoil springs are the first thing i would do to the P7 have you though about a P8 in 9mm (being the USP) they are VERRRRY flat shooting excellent reloading too. da trigger needs some work, but can be fixed.

[Smooth is Fast]

I actually got a pretty good deal on a Springfield Armory XD9 and I took it. It does not have the length that the 34 has, but the grip is sooooooo nice for small hands. It also serves dual purpose, being good for production as well as easy to conceal carry. I am very happy with it. Hell, Rob Leatham kicks butt with it.  Thanks guys.