Major breakthrough: Not pinning the trigger

[Matt Griffin]

I can be fast as hell, and I can be extremely accurate, but I couldn't be both at once. My first shot on paper was usually an A, but the second was somewhere else entirely, regardless of sight picture quality.

So I was practicing the other day, and started working on a variety of things. When I consciously started managing the trigger GENTLY between shots, not pinning it but focusing on applying just enough pressure to break shots, all the sudden my shots were all As. Lousy sight pictures were Cs and marginal As, instead of Ds or Mikes.

I think, and I need to confirm this, that I was tensing up for the transition, and this was throwing my second shot off. Either that, or the trigger being pinned was causing some sort of strangeness during recoil that lasted through the second shot.

Anyone have any thoughts/experiences with this?

H.

[standles]

Gratz....

You have just accomplished what a large majority of shooters never will.

No I am not talking about this one experience. I am talking about the willingness to experiment with your mechanics to try and alter your shooting for the better. Most of the casual shooters I know will not even think about chaning the way they shoot to get better.

"This is the way my daddy taught me and it was fine for him"

"I was taught this way in the military so it is perfect"

"Hopalong Elmo did this in a movie one time and never missed"

etc

etc

Keep up the good work and better things will come. One of the best pieces of advice I got was from Matt Burkett... "I am going to show you what works for me. All I ask is you try it my way for a bit. If it doesn't work then use that as a basis to develop what works right for you."

On a side note:

Of course the individuals get upset when you offer suggestions but get even more upset when they are regulalry trashed in matches. Our club had a range day with several events setup for folks to try. One event was shooting bulls at 15 yards. High score out of 20 shooters/flight won 50% on entry fee. I walked up with my kimber 45 and they laughed at me. Called me easy money and told me that I would not be competitive with an auto. They offered me thier revolvers to shoot. I stepped to the line and drilled six shots into one large ragged hole.

LOL I donated the prize money back to the club to buy instructional pistol shooting videos with.

I won't tell you the time I beat the guy with a 30-30 at 50yards offhand ironsights I regulary get gasps of amazement when I set my tgt at 50yards to practice with my 45.

Later, Steven

[HSMITH]

I went to a dot gun and saw the dot ripping across the target, that is the only way I figured out where I was messing up. My problem is pinning the trigger too, and it was usually only one or two targets per stage that it would be bad enough to cause a miss. The dot is teaching me not to pin the trigger, but it is a slow process for me.

[Crusher]

I found out a while ago that bad trigger pull will muff a great sight picture each and every time. For me what worked to speed up the shots (while still maintaing accuracy) was to focus hard on only the trigger pull during live fire and dry fire drills for quite some time.

I found that this allowed me to "just do" (without consious thought) everything else (movement, set up, transitions "seeing") and observe and MOST of all forget about time.

[Matt Griffin]

Thanks for the confirmations, guys. I think this has been one of the big things that I've needed to work on, and will allow me to scoot up a rank or two in my shooting. After a few thousand down range and a few tens of thousands of dryfires, that is. I've GOTTA get a .22 practice pistol for this sort of thing.

H.

[pjb45]

I found I was slapping the trigger, so I started focusing on pinning it a bit. I am still working on the exact feeling I want.

It is somewhere between pinning and a fast release with a slap. I am achieving it more and more frequently.

My drills are two shots and transition with two shot, then back again. I do this for several magazines at a time.

In a session today, I found that I am seeing the sight lift straight up and as they are settling down I am releasing the trigger and feeling the sear reset when shooting the same target as soon as the sights settle I am releasing the next shot. I am feeling the trigger reset during the transition to the next target and when the sights arrive and I like the sight picture I am releasing the shot.

The first mag everything was running about .73-.85, second mag a little faster, in the .6 range, mags 4 through 9 the time was down in the .43 to .55 range. Unless I looked at the actual shot number it was impossible to tell the second shot from the transitions. I have shot faster second shots and transitions but I am really trying to dial in the feeling of the sear reseting while the sights are returning.

Out of about 180 rounds -- 14 Cs all the rest were As. Sometimes there were amazing tight groups. Oh use two no-shots outside the A zone on each target.

Edited May 10, 2007 by pjb45

[Flexmoney]

Pinning the trigger ?

Maybe I'm using the wrong terms...

To me, pinning the trigger just means to hold the trigger in the rearward position after the shot has broke.

I could be wrong. I haven't poured much thought into this area and in using the proper terms.

What I am hearing described by Houngan is not really what I'd refer to as pinning. It sounds like he is pulling on the trigger with excessive force to me. It sounds like the 4lbs trigger is being pulled with with 20lbs of force (or..whatever numbers fit well there). Then, when the trigger bottoms out...that same force is still applied and is transferred into the frame of the gun...moving the gun around.

I don't believe that holding the trigger back is the factor here. It's the force being applied.

You are on track though...working on trigger control seems to be the key. Speaking of...from what I've read of the bit of info that Leatham puts out...he preaches trigger control a lot. It must be what he sees the most of in his students (that needs work).

Maybe I am blessed a bit...or maybe it comes from shooting rifles when I was younger...but, I never had much of a hang-up with trigger press. If I did, I got over it in short order. (working with the Glock might have helped that process...in a sink-or-swim fashion)

[HSMITH]

Flex, your 20 pound pull on a 4 pound trigger is exactly what I am calling 'pinning' the trigger. I had no idea I was doing it until the dot gun came along, that darn dot can leave a target in a HURRY!!!

[Mo Hepworth]

I think i was actually "punching the trigger" instead of pinning. I was used to dryfire with a DA of 9lbs, and then in a match, pressing the trigger with as much force in SA (3lbs)

My bad!

[Flexmoney]

I'll throw this out too.

My good buddy, Steve Anderson, is often miffed that I have no troubles dry-firing with the Glock. His thinking is there is not enough trigger action to get the feel that he likes (he'd get it if he had a glock...he's good like that).

Anyway...I kinda yank and jerk the trigger around...probably applying more force than needed.

Here is the thing...I don't let that disturb the gun much. The key here is that...(assuming a stance similar to the one Brian has in the picture at the top of the forum) I am gripping the gun fairly robustly with the weak hand. I have the weak hand cammed in and lock the gun into the grip pretty good that way. That leaves little work for my strong hand to have to do. I'm not really gripping the gun all that much with the strong had...at least not in comparison to the rest of my grip and stance. That allows the strong hand to work the trigger...without milking the gun (although with the gun gripped well with the weak hand, this isn't as big of a deal)

I guess what I am getting at...the weak-hand ought to have a real good grip on the gun. If you are doing most of your work with the strong hand, I fear you will continue to see issues.

[Matt Griffin]

Flex, you're absolutely right, and that's one of the things that led me down this path. Weak hand grip was the first big breakthrough I ever had (thanks to Brian's book and these forums) and what started me down the path to becoming competitive at the higher levels.

After much observation, I found the same thing that you suggested, with one difference: I had a great grip in dryfire, but once I started cooking in a match, the strong hand came back in. One of the main factors in my experimentation was to work out a way to stop letting the strong hand take over the shooting, and it turns out that thinking about smoothly working the trigger has additional benefits in preventing the monkey brain from clamping down with the strong hand.

So, same solution, two different problems. Pinning the trigger properly, with a proper grip, isn't necessarily a bad thing, I do that when precision shooting. (I'm handy with an Olympic air pistol, .4lb trigger) Pinning the trigger when running and gunning, with the strong hand already creeped up to 70% of the grip, just adds to the problem and causes the whole hand to tense.

H.

[ima45dv8]

Thanks folks, this is the thread I need.

I've been struggling for years for a way to break the habit of crushing the gun while shooting. I guess it comes from shooting .45s for 20 years before discovering USPSA, and thinking I had to stop the gun from recoiling. Man, I wish someone had caught me before learning *that* bad habit.

Like Houngan said, I do fine in dry-fire, focusing on gripping more with my left hand, I have great trigger control, but when that damn timer beeps.... It's very disheartening at times because I'll see and call a good shot, only to learn while scoring the stage that I wanked it off to God Know's Where.

Too much strong hand grip ruins my trigger control.

Is there a cure?

[HSMITH]

Mark, the dot gun is helping me a lot. The dot goes tearing across the target as the shot is breaking in my case and I see where the shot went more or less. I can't call it exactly due to how fast the dot is moving when it lifts from the shot, but I have a really good idea. Other than just seeing EXACTLY what the gun is doing in response to what I am doing to it by watching the dot, I don't know what would help. Seeing exactly what is going on has done a lot to tame the trigger control problems I have.

Another crutch I have used to somewhat good effect is lowering the lock time of the gun. TI short mainspring cap, another 2 pounds on the mainspring, TI strut and ultralight hammer. This doesn't help what is going on, it just lessens the distance I can yank the gun before the bullet leaves the bore. Adding overtravel to the trigger helps too, more trigger travel before it stops and the energy transfers to the gun. Combined these two things made a measurable difference in my shooting, but it is just a crutch to limp on while I try to work out the real problems.

[ima45dv8]

Thanks Howard. I've been given the advice of an open gun to help correct this (and some other) issues. That's just not in my immediate future (so stop tempting me! ).

I suppose I'll go dry-fire some more.

[Flexmoney]

...I'll see and call a good shot, only to learn while scoring the stage that I wanked it off to God Know's Where.

Mark...brother...you ain't callin' a damn 'thang.

it sounds like you are seeing the sights right before the bullet is leaving the barrel...not as it is doing so. If you were still seeing the sights...you'd know the shot was off from the get-go.

The open gun likely works for shooters because shooter like to be looking at the target...not the sights...when the bullet leaves the barrel.

Iron sighted shooters are going to have trouble calling the shoots if they are using a target focus.

[standles]

Want to know if your calling the shot....

Put a target out far enough you can't see holes

Take a shot and immediately close you eyes or look away. tell your shooting buddy where the bullet hit. He can mark it on a spare tgt/copy etc.

I have had a buddy looking thru Binocs to tell me.

You can really learn how well the shot calling is getting. Start slow and speed will come as all the mechanics become second nature. AKA subliminal.

I have found as things move from concious thought to sub-soncious I can concentrate on the next problem area.

Steven

[ima45dv8]

...I'll see and call a good shot, only to learn while scoring the stage that I wanked it off to God Know's Where.

Mark...brother...you ain't callin' a damn 'thang.

it sounds like you are seeing the sights right before the bullet is leaving the barrel...not as it is doing so. If you were still seeing the sights...you'd know the shot was off from the get-go.

The open gun likely works for shooters because shooter like to be looking at the target...not the sights...when the bullet leaves the barrel.

Iron sighted shooters are going to have trouble calling the shoots if they are using a target focus.

Well of course it makes sense when you put it that way....

I do have a problem drawing my focus back to the front sight as fast as I'd like. And the answer to that is to take the time I need to see what I need to get the result I want.

(Where's a head-slapping icon when I need one?)

[Mick]

Shooting the dot guns definitely helps.

Instead of slapping, whacking and crunching that LTD 2+ pound tigger you will find yourself (hopefully) finessing that OPEN gun's under 2 pound trigger.

It worked for me.

[Singlestack]

What about us short term memory challenged folks? I think I see the sight lift (most of the time anyway) out of the notch, I just have a hard time remembering where it was when I saw it lift.

[Flexmoney]

John,

Making calling the shot...and knowing your one goal and desire for your shooting.

Put that knowing up on a pedestal and worship it above all else.

At first, that might feel like getting stuck in the mud a bit (not worrying about speed, performance, etc.), but what you really are doing is hitching up a powerful team of horses to your wagon.

Knowing will pulling your shooting through all kinds of muck and obstacles.

[Matt Griffin]

Update: I just shot a match, and man it was so much better! My speed was way up, my hits were much better, and my shot calling was working.

45DV8, it may be tougher on you, since a 1911 has so little pre/overtravel. I shoot a Glock, and there is enough overtravel that I can stop the trigger stroke before hitting the frame. It's a loosey-goosey feeling, but the results are speaking for themselves. Try concentrating on getting back to the reset, rather than worrying about the break.

H.

[benos]

Now we're getting down to it.

Make calling the shot...and knowing your one goal and desire for your shooting.

Put that knowing up on a pedestal and worship it above all else.

No matter whether your hitting, pinning, mashing, slapping, milking or squeezing the trigger, if you start from the beginning - Calling each shot is the single most important goal you will ever have as a shooter - and always bear that goal in mind, you will improve and continue to improve faster than you will by doing anything else.

But people don't get that and they just want to shoot fast.

How would you approach a practice session if your only goal was to call each shot - without seeing the hits on the target? You might have to start all over.

Make this your practice goal: When you're done shooting a stage, you should know your score on all the targets before you look at them. Don't try anything else.

There should be no difference in mentality between calling the first shot or calling the second shot on a target.

After you've mastered the first axiom, then add the second axiom of IPSC to your shooting: Do it all as quickly as possible.

Now, technically, let that dictate your grip, stance, and overall position.

Don't try to shoot fast until you know how to shoot.

be

[ima45dv8]

Speed is seductive. I fall prey to it's allures far too often.

[Matt Griffin]

All due respect Brian, but wanting something is not always the same as doing something. I wanted to call my shots, I was trying to call my shots, but my calling of shots was not working. Ergo, I had to figure out why. Turns out I was hitting the trigger too hard, now I can continue down the path.

H.

[Flexmoney]

But people don't get that and they just want to shoot fast.

How would you approach a practice session if your only goal was to call each shot - without seeing the hits on the target? You might have to start all over.

Houngan, what Brian was getting at (not that I can speak for him), is that many/most shooters don't have the right goal in their head from the start.

Many shooters think they want to call the shot. But, we find it is not the first and foremost desire in their mind.

Lanny Bassham says that you can only have one thought in your conscious mind at a time. IPSC/USPSA shooters...when they get down to it...find that they have put something ahead of calling the shot (often speed, but it could be other things too).

For the shooter that might be mashing on the trigger too hard...how is this 'calling the shot' going to help ? Well, the calling...the desire to know...will allow the awareness to open up. Then the shooter can notice what is going on with the gun. This knowing will allow them to see where the sights are going...figure out that is not where they need to be going...and allow the shooter to address that issue. Or, any issue.

Hougan, I think you kinda showed this in your recent experience:

I can be fast as hell, and I can be extremely accurate, but I couldn't be both at once.

You identified...'hey, something is wrong here'.

So I was practicing the other day, and started working on a variety of things.

Changed your focus...opened up your awareness.

When I consciously started managing the trigger GENTLY between shots, not pinning it but focusing on applying just enough pressure to break shots, all the sudden my shots were all As. Lousy sight pictures were Cs and marginal As, instead of Ds or Mikes.

You put your 'thought' into this problem area to get it corrected.