If USPSA Production allowed full cap mags, what would you shoot?

[Nemo]

Limited

[Irishlad]

One indisputable fact from this survey is, if I were CZ/Tanfoglio I'd "lobby" real hard to allow higher capacity mags in production.

Edited May 11, 2007 by Irishlad

[38superman]

If USPSA allowed full cap mags I would shoot my Para LDA (18+1).

I don't shoot production often so I'm not advocating changes.

I will leave that to the will of the majority and to the shooters that have a stake in that division.

That having been said, my LDA is an off the shelf, unmodified production gun.

It seems a little absurd that I am required to come to the line with my magazines loaded to 55% capacity.

Seems kind of like making a rule that revolvers have to come to the line with two empty chambers.

If an extra round or two doesn't matter, why are limited shooters so obsessed with it?

Try getting those guys to dump a couple of rounds and go with 17 at your next match.

Good luck.

Whenever I hear the "capacity doesn't matter" argument I am reminded of a stage I shot at Nationals with my limited gun.

I ran my gun dry on the last target only to look back and discover I had left a popper standing.

I still remember that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach and thinking "just one more round".

Yeah I know, I shouldn't have missed it but I did.

I should have made an extra mag change somewhere but I didn't.

Forgive me. I was trying to win.

Tls

Edited May 11, 2007 by tlshores

[Middle Man]

If an extra round or two doesn't matter, why are limited shooters so obsessed with it?

Human nature, genetic programming...

[Chriss Grube]

Well if the one round was such a big deal I guess STI should be in second place to Para in Limited because the Para will hold one more round. The facts don't bear that out. As far as the quest for one more round....I think most of us just like to push the envelope...and most of the time it takes a bug bite out of someone's A$$. Most of the gun problems are from pushing things as far as they will go.

If they allowed full mags I'd still shoot the 34 or maybe a MP in 9mm.

[Jim Norman]

one round is nothte big difference, It is the 5 rounds difference that would rear its head if full capacity were allowed.

Currently we are running a sort of kinda IROC division with Production. Everyone can do the same things to their guns, but you can only put so much fuel in the tank. The winner is likely the better driver.

Jim

[Jman]

Why was the Nambu not included...WHY!?

...all of us know it would dominate.

Jim

[Flexmoney]

Well if the one round was such a big deal I guess STI should be in second place to Para in Limited because the Para will hold one more round. The facts don't bear that out.

Facts ?

Chris, I luv ya brother...but not in a gay way (not that there is anything wrong with that)

But, the bigger facts are that Paras kinda suck, and STI has this great big contingency program that draws more and more people in. Plus...they don't suck as much as those Paras. (sorry Para shooters..I don't mean to offend)

Do some math here...

2 arrays of 9 rounds = 18 rounds

17+1 means a slide lock reload

you GOTTA have 18. 19 is better, because you don't have to go to slide lock. 20 or 21 is gravy...as you have an extra round or two for when the trigger finger failed or the sights quit working.

Oh...I don't know what I'd shoot if Production went to standard capacity. Maybe IDPA.

[Nemo]

Oh...I don't know what I'd shoot if Production went to standard capacity. Maybe IDPA.

Revolver?

[Micah]

Oh...I don't know what I'd shoot if Production went to standard capacity. Maybe IDPA.

Revolver?

Bingo!

[38superman]

Oh...I don't know what I'd shoot if Production went to standard capacity. Maybe IDPA.

Revolver?

4 Rounds only?

Sorry....... I tried but I just couldn't restrain myself.

T

Edited May 11, 2007 by tlshores

[hopalong]

I voted for "other" since if I was using a Hi-capacity handgun I would shoot Limited and shoot major.

I really do think this has been beaten to death, many times over.

But since someone asked, I did vote to help the numbers.

Hop

I really do like Jims' description of Production division in USPSA ................"IROC" shooting

Edited May 11, 2007 by hopalong

[ChrisMcCracken]

I'd see how my Steyr GB faired, 18 rounds of 9mm and the sweetest DA trigger right out of the box. The only problem is the cost of mags and if something breaks, but i've got plenty o' mags at the moment and a parts gun if need be.

[996fan2007]

PB,

Having 19 rounds instead of 17 may not be the difference...but I'm willing to bet it will matter on 1 or 2 stages in the course of a major.

That is what most USPSA & IPSC competitors believe. Look at the obsession with gaining 1 or 2 extra rounds here on be.com and on the global village. We probably spend more time on this topic than any other gun-technical topic. Does it matter in reality? -frankly, reality does not matter. Popular perception is that 1 or 2 rounds really matter in our sport. AND - course designers create stages to force what they perceive as magazine capacity (I certainly have done that: making a course 12 rounds intead of 10 or 11 or making it 22 rounds instead of 20, etc.).

RacerBA wrote: "17 vs. 19 is no big deal. Losing a couple of rounds to someone isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be. Reloading on the move isn't going to cost me much more time."

That may be true. I tend to agree with you. But its not what people believe nor is it what they will do. Everyone will jump to the highest capacity 9mm-only production guns based on perception (they do it in IPSC). I also agree with TGO that accuracy is what counts and in general, too many of us are too obsessed with speed at the expense of accuracy (that is what I recall of the interview with him from the '05 nationals. Will TGO's advice go unheeded? I think so.

Change the capacity rules and you will only see 4 guns in production: SP-01 (18 rounds) Tanfoglio (same) Glock 17 (18 rnds - yes you can usually squeeze on extra in a 17) or Para LDA-18.

The door will be closed to any other guns being "perceived" as competitive. That would be an unfortunate change from the successful division we have now. Leave Production alone.

Carlos is right. Look at the most competitive guns in Limited and especially at Open right now. In the U.S., S_I dominates open . . . yeah, we all know Eric Grauffel shoots a Tanfoglio, but he's one (sponsored) person. CZ is starting to make some in roads (and maybe EAA, almost singlehandedly on the reputation of Henning; hope he doesn't get hung out to dry), but it's still an S_I game. Sure there are a few Glocks and Paras in Limited, but these are mostly shot by the folks too poor or cheap to buy a S_I.

Most folks, especially at the higher levels of competition, will chase mag capacity. The only exception I can ever think of was during the whole 9x25 phase, and you don't see too many of them still around.

Am I the only one who misses the days before 170mm big sticks?

[Lee Bell]

I'd shoot what I shoot now, an XD 9 Tactical. The change in the division would be interesing, and for me, would add interest, but I would not buy a new gun to gain capacity beyond the 16 + 1 the XD comes stock with.

I would shoot 9mm in the new class, but I'm already doing that in the current one. With everything scoring minor, there's no reason to put up with disadvantage of stronger recoil.

I would not support the change, though, if it eliminated the 10 round division some prefer and others need thanks to remaining limits in some states. My preference is no more important than theirs.

Lee

[Nemo]

Why was the Nambu not included...WHY!?

...all of us know it would dominate.

Jim

It's only an 8-milimeter gun, Jim. Sorry.

[Chriss Grube]

Flex,

Thanks for making the point that the gun and company make a bigger impact on gun selection than just the much overstated extra round. (I'm also glad you don't love me in a gay way)

We keep rehashing the same points on Production. I would suggest that all the full cap haters try shooting an IPSC rules match and then decide if they like it or not. Human nature is to fear change. Might just find out that it is more fun. Otherwise we can keep digging up the poor horse and kicking the crap out of it again and again.

Jim,

Vince thinks we should stick with the 10 round limit too!!!

[Jim Norman]

Very funny Chriss, very funny.

Actuyally just for the record, I do not HATE full cap. IF USPSA had started production as Limited minor DA only with race holsters I would not have a problem with it. HOWEVER as it currently stands, a lot of people have come into shooting USPSA Production with pistols that even if we allowed full capacity would be not at a one rounds, but a 5 round disadvantage. Yes, I know Robbie can beat all of us with a flintlock single shot, but we are discussing human achieveable performance here, not the Leatham Factor.

So, if you want to shoot full cap production, do as you say, we have the power, or will shortly to run IPSC matches here as well as USPSA rules matches. Just remember that your Limited GUn will need to fit the box and the PF in Open is different and...

Jim

[Flexmoney]

Flex,

Thanks for making the point that the gun and company make a bigger impact on gun selection than just the much overstated extra round.

Where did I lose you? it was teh match..wasn't it ?

We keep rehashing the same points on Production. I would suggest that all the full cap haters try shooting an IPSC rules match and then decide if they like it or not.

Ah...I see. We just don't get it, huh ?

[kevin c]

You left out an option, and I don't mean to restart the previously closed discussion, but you're missing out on some opinions if you don't include the option of

"I would stop shooting production if they allowed full-capacity mags"

Would you?

Yes I would, [stop shooting Production]

Limited

one round is nothte big difference, It is the 5 rounds difference that would rear its head if full capacity were allowed.

Currently we are running a sort of kinda IROC division with Production. Everyone can do the same things to their guns, but you can only put so much fuel in the tank. The winner is likely the better driver.

Jim

Living in the not so great state of California, the above applies to my thinking. 10 rounds vs 10 rounds is fine and fun, but not 10 vs 17. I'd just be heading back to Limited or Limited 10 sooner than I'd planned.

BUT, if I were living elsewhere, well, jockeying my Glocks has been fun, so I'd be buying the std cap mags for a 34 or 35.

[A-shot]

We'd be shootin production-10 in Cali if they let people use standard cap mags in Prod, right? You own with ten rounds anyway, Kevin. You don't need anymore!!

[BBunin]

Something else that's going to color the caliber portion:

Most of us are already shooting 9mm in Production. It's cheaper and there's not a lot of advantage to shooting 40 or 45, even if you do light load them.

Me, I'd continue to shoot my XD9, but load up to 16. I don't need 18 or 19. I've just gained a reload I don't have to do. So what if I didn't gain two?

[sargenv]

Um, I'd probably still shoot Revolver and shoot production with my 229 using whatever capacity mags I have.. It's all fun.. I'd just shoot some other division since in Cali it would be production 10 anyway.

Vince