Exactly What Do You See?

[JD45]

There is some good discussion going on in other threads about shooting styles and agressiveness. I wanted to ask a slightly more direct question about vision during a Bill Drill.

What exactly do you see during this drill?

I realize that some people look through the sights at 7yds. and some don't. Trying both ways the results are nearly the same for me. With a paper target that close I can't help but see the sights lift, even periphially.

When I push the splits below .18-.20 the shots climb, usually one or two really high or over completely.

For some reason, I'll call the shots as high Alphas but they will be much higher than I called them.

Just to let you know where I am skillwise, I couldn't shoot 6 Alphas under 2 sec. this week.

Last year my notes tell me I did two cold runs: first was a 2.09, second was a 1.90(best ever) with a 1.04 draw. This is shooting .45 major.

[Jake Di Vita]

With a dot I see the dot lifting off the A zone for every shot.

With a limited gun, I look through the sights probably more than I should. I'll see the sights kind of blurry (I'm almost looking over the sights and sighting with the slide in this particular case) and see the holes open up on the target.

I'm not necessarily reccomending this...this is just what I do. Do whatever allows you to shoot 6 A's at the quickest pace every time.

[JD45]

Thanks for that clear answer, Jake. That helps tremendously.

I'm just sort of curious what every level of shooter is seeing, from D to GM.

Edited April 27, 2007 by JD45

[BSeevers]

I see what I need to see to call the shot.

[hopalong]

Disclaimer:

I am NOT a GM!

I Do NOT shoot open anything so no dot info from me.

On a 7 yd target like you ask about I am looking for the top half of the front sight and want it in the center right where the A is at. At recoil I want the sight to go up and when it comes back to that same spot I let it go again. Now if I'm having a tough time on the trigger it may not be in that spot when the shot breaks but If I'm really watching I can tell that even before the shot breaks as the sight(front) will usually go down behing the back sight and dissapear. I then know what I need to do to correct for the following shots.

I too like Jake look through the back sight and very seldom at 7 yds look for much gap between the post and notch on a target at that range. I do want to know where the top of the post is at. I don't look for holes until the smoke clears.

That is with the LTD gun, The LTD-10 gun, The Revo and even one of them plastic things I detest so much.

Hopalong

[Loves2Shoot]

I try to see the front sight clearly in the a box bouncing around, and at 7 yards it doesn't seem to leave the A zone box if I do things right.

[Crusher]

Play with your grip tension (support hand specifcally) and move the targets back to at least 10 yds (7 yds is a bit close) or 12 yds.

Bill drills at longer distance can be an "eye opener" with regard to training your brain and your grip.

As far as I can see its a "rolling sight picture" and with the "right" (for me) tension the shots are there and sights (allthough rolling) are precise and clear.

FWIW I rarley do bill drills closer that 10 yds as I find I will sometimes accept less than needed sight picture (if the intenet is to use the sights), but because of my grip/NPA the shots are allways there, out at 10 and beyond the grip/NPA AND sights must be there for reliability and I'm still trying to "train my brain".

[Steve Anderson]

I like the term "rolling sight picture"

The front sight or dot never really stops and subsequent shots are released in the presence of an acceptable sight picture.

SA

[hopalong]

S A,

That's the exact words I was looking for!

Hop

[JD45]

Since I've recently hit a wall in training, I tried something new today. Going partially off what Jake mentioned, I shot a few 7yd. Bill drills with the gun a hair lower. Low enough that the entire front sight was above the rear notch. It was almost like holding the pistol where you would if there was a C-More on top.

I looked only at the target, and watched every hole appear clearly. I didn't have a timer today, so I'll post more when I shoot it on the clock.

Compared to my normal shooting, this was too easy. If a shot got a bit wide or high I would drive the rest right back into the A-zone. And the groups were a whole lot tighter. The entire process felt so smooth.

I've been all over the target lately on 7yd. one-shot draws, but with a target focus most were Alphas. This new focus is working wonders for my index.

To further the test I walked back and shot a 25yd. Bill Drill. My thinking was I'll just look at a perfect sight picture like normal and when the sights go back to the center I'll focus on feeling the gun work just like it did drilling Alphas at 7yds. I walked down and saw five Alphas and one Charlie, and this was faster than normal.

It's hard to describe what a positive affect I'm getting from this. I'm going to keep working at this because I believe I'm about to make a huge leap foward.

[PaulW]

At these top speeds knowing that the sights will be back when you fire the next shot shot means you are in tune with the timing of your gun. With this drill I seeing a red blurr, dot up down seems to create a big red vertical line.

[HSMITH]

I like the term "rolling sight picture"

The front sight or dot never really stops and subsequent shots are released in the presence of an acceptable sight picture.

SA

That ought to be a sticky........

[Mick]

I like the term "rolling sight picture"

The front sight or dot never really stops and subsequent shots are released in the presence of an acceptable sight picture.

SA

Good definition.

I see a blurry red fiber optic wiggling in the A zone and don't see any rear sight although my eyes are using it to center the red fiber optic front.

As far as the longer Bill Drills, I've been doing the 3X6 Bill Drills similar to Max's except I use one target and start at 15 yards go to 10 and then 7 yards. By the time you're at 7 yards you're really cooking and the red fiber optic is blurring or "rolling" pretty fast.

I think that name could stick.

Figure some times:

15 yards @ 2.7 to 3 seconds or so all As

10 yards @ 2.0 to 2.5 seconds if you are old and slow like me with "Tennis elbow" too.

7 yards @ 1.9 to 2.2.

Some of these young whiper snappers are running those 7 yards drills down closer to 1.3 to 1.5 second but us older guys don't hit that much anymore.

[Micah]

I see the dot from my fiber optic doing a little jig inside the A zone. Even though it's six shots in max speed, I don't perceive it as being anything more than relaxed control.

When I've tried to think GO GO GO I usually end up with trigger freeze, or charlies.

Oh, and I'm a Production A

[TDean]

"What do you see?"

Total target focus. A feeling of looking over the gun...like pointing at something with your finger at shoulder level.

7yds is in the point-shoot comfort zone for me.

I'm conscious of the muzzle's relation (ghostly image of front and rear sights) to the target for a fraction of a second before the first shot, I then assume a state of rigamortis (excpet for my trigger finger) for five more trigger jerks.

..at 10+yds, I'll take more of a text-book approach (see sights in notch).

[Loves2Shoot]

TDEAN is wicked fast at 7 yards...

[Mick]

Count your shots....

I had a rookie class doing Bill Drills after a brief demonstration.

(I pulled a 1.97, 6 As with our issue Glock 17s)

They started trying to go fast but kept locking up until I said "count

your shots". Right before the timer goes off, count to SIX and program a

mental thought for SIX. Start slow counting to get a rhythm and build up speed.

I got them doing 6 rounds from the holster in 4 seconds (forever!) within a few trys and most were C zone or better. (Hey, they're new!)

Gotta get your brain to work right before you can expect your finger or anything else to work right...

[buddy_fuentes]

Question. It seems to me you would be better off doing the "Bill Drill" (any other drill) at closer ranges (5 to 7 yards) until your hits are consistently A's and you are at your maximum speed. Then you would increase the distance and do the same again. Eventually you would be trained to shoot at the longer distances, at speed.

Is the quest for "A" zone hits too time consuming and maybe hurting the score? Should you just let the lead fly and hope? Should you train for the "A" and know that the training will take over and increase the odds of shooting A's?

I am fairly new to USPSA and would like to shoot faster, but I don't want to give up accuracy. Am I trying to be too focused on the "A" zone and not enough on speed?

[JD45]

Buddy,

That's actually a good idea sometimes. Shooting close targets does help you "feel" the gun work and can help timing.

Try this sometimes: Shoot several 50yd. Bill Drills. Try to see all Alphas. Be sure to paste the targets and check your shot calling. Then repeat at 25yds. Shoot a bunch of them.

Now move to 7yds. and shoot the same Bill Drill. Come back and tell us what you experienced.

[Chuck Merriam]

I do the blury look over top the sights thing too. I often can't see my hits on close targets....but really pick them up on ones past 10 yrds or so. I am a B limited who is starting to shoot some A classifiers. I see many new shooters trying to aim way too much and not feeling thier way with the gun. When I am on, I am relaxed and looking over the gun and calling and watching my shots show up. I shot 92% on sunday of an active GM during the Pistol only stage of a 3-gun match. One close target had what I thought on first inspection to be only one hit...I was mad...and looked closer...there it was my first true double at speed. Any closer and they would have given me a mike. I knew I didn't miss because my timing was good...but because it was a 7 yrd target I never saw the hits.

[buddy_fuentes]

JD45, I think I can tell you now, frustration! There is no way I can see to call the shots at 50 yards or for that matter, 25 yards. On a good day with the light just right, I can see my holes in a fifteen yard target.

I wear glasses for distance, but cannot see my sights with them on. Therefore, I just use safety glasses and can see my sights.

My next eye check-up will be with a doctor that shoots and hopefully he will be able to give me some help. If so, I'll try your drill.

Thanks, Buddy

[shred]

JD45, I think I can tell you now, frustration! There is no way I can see to call the shots at 50 yards or for that matter, 25 yards. On a good day with the light just right, I can see my holes in a fifteen yard target.

I wear glasses for distance, but cannot see my sights with them on. Therefore, I just use safety glasses and can see my sights.

My next eye check-up will be with a doctor that shoots and hopefully he will be able to give me some help. If so, I'll try your drill.

Thanks, Buddy

You need to revisit "calling the shot". It's got very little to do with seeing the holes in the target. http://www.brianenos.com/pages/words.html#accuracy

[Crusher]

There is no way I can see to call the shots at 50 yards or for that matter, 25 yards. On a good day with the light just right, I can see my holes in a fifteen yard target.

Don't consiously look for holes, that's the RO's job. If your doing it right the holes will be there, and all you see is a sight/dot lift where you want the bullet to go and move on to the next shot/target.

Looking for the holes requires consious thought, ain't no time for that, too slow