Testing Of Attitudes And Styles

[Jake Di Vita]

Backstory:

Shot the Wisconsin Sectional match this past weekend. Even though it ended in a victory I feel I shot horribly. In 8 stages I had an amazing 21 extra shots. It just felt as if the dot was never tracking like it should, or the gun was controlling me rather than the other way around.

I had adopted a very relaxed style of shooting. Very few muscles in my body were ever tensed, shoulders stayed totally relaxed, etc. Well last night there was a local 4 stage steel match so I decided I would use this as a proving grounds. The first time I shot through, I used steel loads I had just worked up. 5.2 grains of 7625 (my usual load is 7.6 @ 175 powerfactor). I shot with the same kind of technique I used in Wisconsin...very relaxed. I once again had several extra shots and it felt as though the gun was pushing me around. My overall time for those 4 stages was right around 47 seconds.

The second time around I switched it up a bit. I went into a much more aggressive stance and used my regular 175 power factor ammo. My shoulders were more raised and tense, my head lowered a bit, and my knees bent more. I shot with a much stronger grip as well. The difference was absolutely amazing. The gun tracked the same for every shot. Shooting the stages became very predictable. My times were also much more consistent...and also the biggest measure of relaxation - being my draw - stayed the same or was faster. Shooting with a much more aggressive stance and being more tensed up ended up with a final time of about 41 seconds and 8 fewer extra shots. That's a 6 second difference...or in other words approximately a 15% improvement.

So if some of you feel like you are geting pushed around by the gun, or things just haven't been clicking for you....try shooting more aggresively. You might be surprised as to the outcome.

[BigDave]

Jake,

Were the stages you shot ones you were familiar with or had shot before that night? I'm wondering some of your improvement might be due to (1) just shooting the same stages or (2) prior familiarity?

Your thoughts?

[Jake Di Vita]

First time I had ever seen any of them was that day.

[Flexmoney]

I agree. we can get too....comfortable...behind the gun.

It's hard to define with words like relaxed and tense.

[Steve Moneypenny]

I think it all comes down to one thing, how hungry you are. that's why so many rookies do so well early on in nascar. why tiger woods was so far ahead in golf then he's right back with the pack. You play a LOT harder when your in the hunt for something more.

[benos]

Jake,

That is a fine line to find: as firm as possible without being tense.

Although I'm often associated with a "relaxed" state of shooting (because of using word "relax" in my book), I actually shot with a very firm grip and arm position. When shooting my best I felt very solidly "behind the gun."

To me, the word "relax" meant backing off from the typically overly tense state that seemed to always come over me upon hearing the start buzzer. So in a sense I was "relaxing" from being too tense.

And then on top of that, for me, a specific feeling and level of firmness that I felt in practice had no relationship whatsoever to what that same level of firmness felt like in a match. In a match, if I felt "relaxed," my tension level was actually fairly close to what it felt like to be just firm, in practice.

I said "for me," because I feel it is a temperament related issue. I think there are a lot of people who can say to themselves, "I'm going to shoot at Tension Level #8 (TL 8) on this stage in practice," and then say that same thing in a match and have the actual TL's be very similar if not the same.

But for me it was not like that. I always defaulted to coming out of the holster much tenser in a match than I ever did in practice.

So (again) for me, it really helped when I figured out how to create, remember, and manage an optimum tension level for match shooting only. Since "the juice" wasn't there in practice, managing the TL in practice was much easier: shoot firm but not tense.

be

[Jake Di Vita]

Yeah I like the way you worded it better than the way I did.

Firmness is a much better word than tension.

That actually helped sort things out a lot in my head...thanks.

Now that I think about it, maybe that was why I was shooting Limited better than I was shooting in Open. My natural tension level subconciously increased because the gun wasn't doing most of the work for me anymore.

[Z-man]

Wow, perfect timing Jake. I was just thinking about this very thing. I noticed a similar thing, in that at a recent match (Idaho Glock's Only) I could tell a noticable improvement on stages where I felt aggressive with a more firm grip and stance and just attacked the stage (that's the best way I can describe it). I've begun thinking about trying to replicate a certain feeling behind the gun.

My question to you and others (not to change the subject) is do you notice a difference with tension/firmness issue depending on the type of targets to engage? I've noticed I'm more aggressive on stages with open close targets and yet more "loose" on stages with tougher shots. Has anyone else noticed this? If this is too much of a hijack of your thread, I'll be glad to move. (Congrats on the win btw)

Edited April 25, 2007 by Z-man

[Jake Di Vita]

No I think that's a really fitting question for this thread...

In my case, I think I'll be best served by having the same firmness on all shots. If only for the fact that it makes the dot track much more consistently.

This is something that might vary towards the shooter's temperment though as well.

[Carmoney]

Although I'm often associated with a "relaxed" state of shooting (because of using word "relax" in my book), I actually shot with a very firm grip and arm position. When shooting my best I felt very solidly "behind the gun."

Sometimes I think we need BE to make a sticky thread called something like "Things In My Book That Shooters Have Misunderstood or Misapplied."

I see tons of really loose, floppy, weak, and wholly ineffective use of hands and arms at matches these days, all done under the name of "relaxed" or "neutral" grip. Sometimes I have to just look away.

Jake, great post. Brian, great reply.

[hopalong]

Great post Jake, and thanks Brian. Glad you can put into words what many of us can't.

I have caught myself getting sloppy hits at matches, and really BLOWING the plate rack several times. I study what I'm doing(or not doing) and most of the time it is being too relaxed and letting the gun get away from me and not driving it the way I should. Problem solved by a firmer grip with the left hand and leaning into the recoil from the waist up.

Hopalong

[Z-man]

All great posts! I was thinking, I'm learning and trying to find a mixture of a firm and aggressive grip/stance/movement with visual patience and mental calm. I think for a long time those two seemed at odds for me...

[Crusher]

I find that if I shoot with a "relaxed" mind and my body is sprung (for lack of a better word) I do my best. Self destruction occurs when I reverse the two.

[G-ManBart]

I noted something similar a couple of weeks ago while practicing and almost started a thread on it. I was doing a simple drill with two targets at about 15yds and working on transitions and reloads. I was feeling very relaxed, no pressure, and all of a sudden I started getting some poor hits for no reason I could think of. I got mad at myself and started driving the gun/front sight and all of a sudden the hits were right where they should be and I was shooting faster. I realized that firming up my grip and getting a bit more aggressive made the gun track properly, but it certainly wasn't a death grip on the gun.

I think that if you're grip and stance are solid and firm you're probably giving the gun something more consistent to recoil against and that's letting it track the same way (or pretty close to it) for each shot.

Great topic!

[Matt Griffin]

I've found that the biggest difference in shooting is when I'm moving as a "unit", and it takes quite a bit of muscle tension to form the "unit." Like a golf swing, both hands should not be able to move independently of each other, but instead should feel like a single entity at the end of your arms, which in turn feel like a single entity coming from your shoulders. This, coupled with proper turning from the waist and good core muscle control, is how I shoot my best; the only thing I'm waiting on is the entire unit to swivel to the next target, the sights will be there, the recoil control will be there, etc. When I shoot my worst, there is usually the feeling of my attention being inside my left (strong) hand, and that's when I start milking, yanking the trigger, pushing shots, etc.

Also like a golf shot, you really shouldn't feel the impact of the ball if you do everything right, it just flies out of the swing on its own. When I have everything dialed in, I don't notice recoil, I'm impatiently waiting on the sights to return so I can pull the trigger again. I don't really know or care where they went (although I do notice if they track improperly) I'm just wanting to get on with the shooting.

H.

[BritinUSA]

Thinking back to my disastrous Rio performance I think I was having the same problem. I was trying to force myself to relax, when I fired each shot the dot was bouncing all over the place. I use more firmness when I shoot local matches and a slightly more agressive stance with my head down just a touch.

I am redesigning my stance / grip to make it more consistent when shooting from awkward angles and this will tie into it nicely.

Thanks for the observation, Jake. Perfect timing.

Edited April 26, 2007 by BritinUSA

[Mick]

I find that if I shoot with a "relaxed" mind and my body is sprung (for lack of a better word) I do my best. Self destruction occurs when I reverse the two.

Agreed

The word relax for me refers mainly to my mental state as my body is "sprung" whenever I shoot anything. After so many years of shooting so many rounds my body repsonds to the needs on it's own. I don't think I could change my grip if I wanted to.

Sloppy hits result from a lack of concentration and focus on harder targets etc when finer skills are needed as opposed to shooting wide open targets (which still require focus).

If I feel rushed or anxious my body still shoots the same but my focus leaves the planet and thus the accuracy is gone too.

[Leozinho]

Although I'm often associated with a "relaxed" state of shooting (because of using word "relax" in my book), I actually shot with a very firm grip and arm position. When shooting my best I felt very solidly "behind the gun."

Sometimes I think we need BE to make a sticky thread called something like "Things In My Book That Shooters Have Misunderstood or Misapplied."

I see tons of really loose, floppy, weak, and wholly ineffective use of hands and arms at matches these days, all done under the name of "relaxed" or "neutral" grip. Sometimes I have to just look away.

Jake, great post. Brian, great reply.

I'm glad I read this thread.

Count me as one who misapplied the "relaxed" state. I was trying to let the gun "float," but I couldn't figure out why I had so much muzzle flip. (I even thought for a while I needed to get my strong hand more " behind" the backstrap, which resulted in very ackward grips when I drew. )

Then I saw a post where someone mentioned asking Phil Strader how firmly he gripped with the weak hand. Phil had the shooter grip the pistol with the his strong hand while Phil placed his own left hand as the weak hand, and apparently Phil really cranked down on the fellow's hand.

Only then did I start to put it together that relaxed and no tension were not the same as firmness.

[Flexmoney]

If you look close, you can see varying degrees of aggressiveness and grip in this little video. (gun flip)

This was a reshoot (going through the match a second time for fun).

The first pass through the steel is kinda...lazy on the gun. The make-up shots got a little more focus. And, then the last two shots (on the paper)...the first there also has focus. The last shot likely does too, but there wasn't a need/desire to follow through real hard.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8...yners&hl=en

[hopalong]

Excellent example!!!!

While it appeared Flexmeister was quite "relaxed" it also showed his grip at the time he was really conected and driving the plastic toy gun, some parts of him was not "relaxed"................can't say much good about his mental part though............he's always "RELAXED" there or maybe the workd I'm looking for is "TOUCHED"

Hop

[benos]

...but there wasn't a need/desire to follow through real hard.

[Flexmoney]

...but there wasn't a need/desire to follow through real hard.

I guess I should have 'splained myself a bit better.

After the final shot (a called head shot at 24y that landed right on top of the one before it), I didn't have any more gun driving to do. That is what I meant by no need/desire to follow through after that last shot. Now that I think about it, those weren't the proper words to use.

The reason for the slop and the lazy/relaxed shooting at the steel in the beginning of that stage...that is pretty much what I asked for mentally. I had already shot the stage pretty well in the match for score. On the reshoot, mentally all I had on my mind was to shoot the head shots on the paper (I had taken the sliver of the body, between the steel hard-cover during the match).

Maybe I shouldn't have showed that run. And, maybe I should have shot it 'like it counted'. I thought it was a good example of what was being talked about here. I did get out of it what I was looking for. And, my mental game mojo is fine. (My mind pictures that first run where I center-punched the poppers and split the steel hard-cover to get to the paper. And, it pictures the nice head-shot hold/trigger press on the paper on the reshoot run.

[vincent]

When I'm shooting I like to be

1) relaxed mentally - focused on the shooting at hand.

2) attentive visually - knowing what I want to see to make a shot and being patient enough to see it without dilly-dallying around and seeing too much

3) aggressive physically - snap my eyes where they need to go, drive the gun from target to target, and really MOVE from position to position.

I don't expect to be physically relaxed while shooting (i.e. muscles relaxed). Now at other times in the match I try to make an effort to relax my muscles to ease extra tension that isn't needed. I find the mental "relaxation" is really clarity and focus on what you want to do. It "seems" relaxing to me, so I use that word. Hard to write down.

Edited May 5, 2007 by vincent

[chp5]

Good post Jake.

[Paladin]

..engage the reptilian brain and your effectiveness will increase!.. too relaxed and you have conscious override!!..