Tac-load Mag Retention Rule

[oregonshooter]

I'm reading the IDPA rulebook and noticed that a tac-load by the books definition would allow me to drop the mag in the gun to the (aka speed load) and then pick it up and store it while running to the next shooting stage.

The glossary defines proper mag retention as including but not limited to the several pock storage location on a shooter, with exception to speacially designed pockets for such use.

Question:

Can I store mags by throwing them down the front of my shirt that is tucked in at the waist? This is how LEO train and I wanted to get a confirmation before trying it at the next match.

[RobMoore]

My hand has to my hip to draw the next mag, I might as well stash the half empty one in my pocket while I'm there. I don't see trying to stuff it in my shirt as being any faster, but its your call.

[oregonshooter]

Rob,

Not sure you understood me, or I'm confused.

I want to do an IPSC speed load and then pick up the mag. Stuffing it in the shirt is faster than trying to get it into a pocket while kneeling down to pick it up.

From what I read, this qualifies as a tac-load except the storing in the shirt is not addressed in teh rules from what I can see.

[RickB]

I take the glossary definition of proper storage to be exclusive of other options. The rule book definition of "speed reload" includes reference to leaving the mag behind, so if you stow the mag rather than leave it behind you should be OK, but you can't stuff the mag in your shirt. I'd think the opportunities to use your described reload - dropping the mag on the ground, then picking it up - to competitive advantage, would be pretty limited.

[oregonshooter]

exclusive would use "These places ARE" instead of "These places include" and there would be no need for the reminder of "hands of teeth is NOT permitted" wouldn't it?

[RickB]

exclusive would use "These places ARE" instead of "These places include" and there would be no need for the reminder of "hands of teeth is NOT permitted" wouldn't it?

If I had five places to put something, the list of places would include those five, right? I think you are looking for something that isn't there. I might even agree that what you are proposing - ejecting a mag onto the ground, reloading the gun, retrieving the spent mag and dropping it down your shirt - is not really addressed in the rule book, but I suspect you might find plenty of SOs who disagree. Even if Bill Wilson declared your technique legal, I still don't see you getting any benefit from it. About the only time I do the tac load anymore is on string two of stage three of the classifier, and your technique would certainly be of no benefit in that case.

[revchuck]

Even assuming this type of load were legal, I doubt you'd save any time over a RWR...and this doesn't take into account the safety aspect of where your muzzle is pointing while your eyes are searching for the mag you dropped. IMO, this is a case being too clever by half.

[IronEqualizer]

I have to agree with the masses. This would be way slower than grabbing the mag from the magwell and while your hand is heading toward the new mag put it in your front pocket. If you have been finding it difficult to stow in your front pocket use some other pants besides jeans. Most cargo pants have a nice big loose front pocket and the mag drops right in. In this case folowing the way everyone else does it is the way to go. I would say 99% of all Masters stow in a front pocket. This is free advice/experience so take it for what its worth.

[oregonshooter]

Rick,

Don't RO's follow the rule book?

I've timed myself actually and it is quicker in the instance of doing a reload while squatting/kneeling for me anyway. I have a video or 2 reloads that I did last week to check the times and while its just a quick check, it shows merit for overall time. Even at a leisurely retrieval of the mag, I beat a tac-load in this case. More testing will tell, but its not about the speed issue anyway. Add to this, storing in the shirt and it should be even faster.

reload_speeds.wmv

I'm not looking to do it to gain time, although I think it may. I'm doing it because I would like my IDPA to more resemble my "tactics" training for the street. On the street after shooting someone, I don't want a tac-load because of the added fumble factor. I Reload w/ Retention in IDPA now.

What I plan to do is a speed load after a shooting for several reasons:

1. The need for a reload in a fight has never been documented (AFAIK), let alone needing to retrieve bullets from a partial mag that was tac-loaded or RwR

2. The speed load after action is the same motion for a reload from slide lock, same motion for a TRB and thus gives me ONE motion/drill for 3 scenarios. KISS

3. Time permitting the mag is retained.

4. Consistency, consistency, consistency...

Edited April 15, 2007 by oregonshooter

[Duane Thomas]

I have found the fastest way to retain a mag during a RWR - we might as well forget the true tactical reload for IPDA, it's just way to too slow - while squatting or kneeling is to stuff it in the back of my waistband, then, as my hand is moving back around, grab the spare mag out of the pouch as the hand passes it. When I won my state champsionship in 2002, I used that technique on one of the stages I won outright. This technique works much better with jeans than the new breed of "tactical pants" BTW. Jeans, when you squat or kneel, will tend to have your belt in back bow outward, pulling the pants cloth outward, giving you a nice little open "pocket" to drop in the mag, whereas tactical pants tend to have elastic waistbands that pull the cloth in tight to your body.

I'm not convinced, BTW, that stuffing the mag down you shirt is "how LEO trains." I remember when I first heard of that technique, about ten years ago, and to my understanding it originated with a bunch of spec ops guys who were doing multiple house-to-house, room-to-room clearings in a far-off land every day. They found that, over time, they were actually running out of magazines because they'd do a speedload, then the action would move on and they didn't have time to pick up their spare mags. They came up with the idea of dropping their empty AR mags down the front of their t-shirts, so they still had them and could retain them to be reloaded at their leisure later.

Again, I'm not convinced this is "how LEO trains." Not saying there aren't LEOs out there doing it, but I'd be amazed if it's SOP for many departments. Bear in mind this technique was developed by guys who still had multiple loaded mags on their persons, the only reason they were retaining the used mag was to keep it on their body for reloading later. The reason we retain a partially empty pistol magazine - if we do - is because, in contrast to the soldier who begins a confrontation with more spare ammo on his body than Pancho Villa, the cop or concealed carry permit holder, in all probability, starts out with the ammo in the gun, one or two reloads, and that's it. In the overall scheme of things, that's not a lot of ammo. We retain the cartridges in the partially spent magazine just on the off chance we might need them later. Having to pull up the bottom of our shirt, or go spelunking through its neck, to retrieve that mag should we suddenly need it later, is not the most efficient technique.

[oregonshooter]

Again, I'm not convinced this is "how LEO trains." Not saying there aren't LEOs out there doing it, but I'd be amazed if it's SOP for many departments.

While it was not in our SOP, my department taught it on the range as of 2 years ago when I was still with them.

The shirt stash actually works in about any position and while running but is not a speed demon so its not popular.

Any reload with retention is a waste of time in my book for a CCW shooter. A speed reload is what we should be doing, but unfortunately the tac-load is IDPA's way of saying "we are more tactical and realistic than IPSC" to me and will not be going anywhere soon.

I just finished a good article on the matter that has some excellent points as to why the "tactical" reload is not very tactical.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_trainin...604/index1.html

Duane,

Do you think the rules are against doing a speed load and then retaining the mag, or is that legal in IDPA to your knowledge?

[Duane Thomas]

In every IDPA match I've ever shot, you were allowed to do a speedload and then pick up the old mag IF you picked up and stowed the old mag before firing another shot.

[oregonshooter]

Are you referirng to accidental droppings or both accidental and intentional?

Some have said that if you intend to drop the mag ala "speed load" that will get a FTDR for circumventing the "spirit" of the stage. My argument would be that there is no advantage gained by the move and that it fits a tac-load by the strictest reading of pg. 41 of the manual.

[Joe4d]

The use of specially designed pockets, "shirt pockets,"... upper vest pockets, hands or teeth is NOT permitted.

When I started IDPA I used to wear a fishing shirt the ones with the large puffy fly box pockets, I could un velcro flap tuck it in and leave a fairly large pocket opening for RWR's then was pointed out that shirt pockets wernt allowed, so I cut off the sleeves Voila! now its a vest I notice the current rulebook now says "uppervest pockets" droping it down the front of the shirt would in my mind a "shirt pocket" I think the intent here is to stow the mag somewhere around the wasteline. The rule books also state on the clock TAC?RWR's shouldnt be used. Which is kinda odd cause they are in the classifier. My club has gotten away from requiring specific reloads on stages so I pretty much look at RWR's the same way I look at standng reloads in IPSC and try to avoid them unless I am moving from a firing point to another (behind the same cover of course)

[oregonshooter]

Joe,

Using the collar might be going against the "hip" rule, but calling the collar of a shirt a "pocket" is stretching a bit I think.

You know, after finally figuring that this method would be legal, I think I'm just going to throw rounds til I slide lock. There is no rule against shooting extra rounds on target and unless its obvious (5 into a target 1 ft away) you can't prove it.

I get to practice the most needed reload skill (from slide-lock) I get more trigger time, and do not get into a shoot 2 pattern, and I get the speed advantage.

Hey, I think we have a winner here.

Thanks for the input guys.

Duane, much appreciate the factual response and tip for speed.

[Steve Moneypenny]

you can do the speed load and pick it up, but your going to lose a TON of ground to other shooters there it takes forever.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

You know, after finally figuring that this method would be legal, I think I'm just going to throw rounds til I slide lock. There is no rule against shooting extra rounds on target and unless its obvious (5 into a target 1 ft away) you can't prove it.

Before trying this, I suggest you read the rule book a little more closely

Penalties

Conduct

PC 1. Failure To Do Right (FTDR):

A. Adds twenty (20) seconds to total score.

B. Is assessed for any attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage by the use of inappropriate devices, equipment or techniques.

C. Is assessed for unsportsmanlike conduct, unfair actions, or the use of illegal equipment, which, in the opinion of the MD, tends to make a travesty of the defensive shooting sport. This will result in an FTDR or DQ from the entire match at the discretion of the MD. Repeated offenses reported to the AC or HQ can result in having membership revoked.

D. Examples: (Non-inclusive list)

1. Firing extra rounds so that you may reload at a more convenient time.

2. Purposely committing a procedural error because your score will be better even with the penalty

3. Not reloading to fire one more round because your score will be better even with the miss.

The highlighted portions are very subjective and up to the SO that is giving the PEs. What you may get away with some places, may not be tolerated at others and that is why the rules are as loosely written as they are. They are open to interpretation.

You stated

There is no rule against shooting extra rounds on target and unless its obvious (5 into a target 1 ft away) you can't prove it.

As the SO on a stage, or the MD for a particular venue, I do not have the "prove" it. It is up to those calling the penalties. Their decision will be upheld 9 times out of 10 by their MD.

Regards,

[Mayonaise]

In every IDPA match I've ever shot, you were allowed to do a speedload and then pick up the old mag IF you picked up and stowed the old mag before firing another shot.

Bingo! Whether dropped intentionally or accidentally you will get a procedural unless it's retrieved and stowed before the next shot.

[Crusher]

FWIW slide lock reloads can be accomlished (shot, reload, shot) at or under 2 sec, RWR can be done in 2.5 sec or under and static tac-reoloads in 3 sec or under for most.

A timer, range, some targets and a few drill boxes is all that is needed to test all three reload types for live fire, dry fire time (lots) is needed to perfect all 3 from a manipulation standpoint.

Which method used is dependant on what other actions (if any) may be accompished while negotiating a stage.

[oregonshooter]

Round_Gun_Shooter,

Sorry, I was being tongue in cheek. You have a good point on the SO not needing proof. He's the judge if he knows the rules or not and the MD will say "yes" to keep thing moving and show support unless its an obviously bad call on the SO's part.

I'm actually just gonna ask for a "no score" on matches and see if they will let me practice on their COFs. I did this in the past, but people got all twisted up over it because I was doing something they were not. If you vary a little (like one guy who shoots mo-zam-beeks every target) then they let it slide. You start using a dummy round every few mags to practice a TRB, shoot 2-4 on target, speed load, etc. and you get labeled as a trouble maker even if its for no score.

Crusher,

I'll be testing the times next shooting session.

[RickB]

I think most clubs expect shooters to play by the rules. If you want to practice otherwise, that's fine, but the IDPA rule book essentially says, play by the rules - the spirit of the rules - or you'll get dinged, and hard, for not doing it the way we want you to do it. Accepting penalties isn't going to fly.

[RobMoore]

reload_speeds.wmv

I'm not looking to do it to gain time, although I think it may. I'm doing it because I would like my IDPA to more resemble my "tactics" training for the street. On the street after shooting someone, I don't want a tac-load because of the added fumble factor. I Reload w/ Retention in IDPA now.

Not only was your RWR the fastest, it could have been even faster if you hadn't made the mistake of going to your mag first. I play 3 different games, and I train for each, and use whatever technique works best for each.

As for "real world", if you're in the middle of a gunfight, you're going to be shooting to slide lock so none of this discussion matters. If you have a "lull" in the action and you want to return to full capacity in case the SHTF again, a speed load is the fastest and if you think of it, do it, but don't hunt for the mag on the ground. If you've got the time and state of mind to think of a reload, you won't be working off instinct, so you don't need to engrain this technique by using it in IDPA hoping it transfers over. Use what works best for the game.

[gotm4]

I spoke to Larry Vickers in March about the RWR in IDPA and his opinion of it is that in a real gunfight you'll probably do it 1% of the time but in IDPA it's blown way out of proportion.

[revchuck]

I spoke to Larry Vickers in March about the RWR in IDPA and his opinion of it is that in a real gunfight you'll probably do it 1% of the time but in IDPA it's blown way out of proportion.

FWIW, my perception is that it's getting less and less play at matches. Most matches just require "any IDPA-legal reload" and let the shooter choose.

[Steve J]

Question:

Can I store mags by throwing them down the front of my shirt that is tucked in at the waist? This is how LEO train and I wanted to get a confirmation before trying it at the next match.

No, it's not legal. Don't get caught in the "real world" trap. IDPA is a game. The rule book may not be the best written document, but it's still rules for a game. Real world situations have no rules. Even though it may not be specifically so worded, the only accepted method for stowing magazines is back in the belt carrier, in a pants pocket, or in a side vest pocket.