illtmprdman Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 With respect to a previous post (Problems with my Para -- again), here is a list of the problems I have experienced with my P14 Stainless Limited pistol: 1. THE GUN DOES NOT FIRE – Most often, I have to pull the trigger twice to get the hammer to drop. Sometimes, I can pull the trigger multiple times and the hammer will still not drop. 2. THE GUN DOES NOT CONSISTENTLY EJECT SPENT ROUNDS – Sometimes, a live round will stick in the chamber and a spent casing will jam itself on an angle between the extractor and the top of the ejection port. 3. THE REAR SIGHT “WALKED” OUT OF THE REAR SLIDE GROOVE – After a short range practice, I found that the rear sight had moved 1/8” to the right. I took the gun to a local gunsmith, and he put the sight back into position. I am unsure why the sight “walked” in the first place. Moreover, I am equally unsure if this problem has been permanently fixed. 4. THE GUN SOMETIMES DOUBLE-FEEDS – Since I started using my 14rd magazines, this behavior has ceased, yet I am unsure if this problem has been permanently fixed. 5. THE TRIGGER OVERTRAVEL STOP IS OUT OF ADJUSTMENT – In an attempt to correct the gun’s inability to fire, the trigger overtravel stop was adjusted counter-clockwise. Because this was neither the problem nor the solution, the overtravel stop is now out of adjustment. ------------------------------------------------------------------- UPDATE: I sent my gun to Para-Ordnance (it cost me $54.00 for overnight UPS service -- yikes). They said they would fix the gun and refund my shipping expenses. Well, I got my gun back. All the afore mentioned problems seem to be fixed. Here's what the repair sheet said: INSTALLED NEW EXTRACTOR. POLISHED THROAT AND BARREL. ADJUSTED TRIGGER OVERTRAVEL SCREW. CHECKED REAR SIGHT. INSTALLED NEW DISCONNECTOR. TEST FIRED W/ BALL AND HP AMMO. ALL FUNCTIONS OK. Apparently, they didn't test my gun very well. The fixed the existing problems and caused a new one. Hence, my gun is broken AGAIN -- the grip safety doesn't work (it stays depressed). Also, they didn't refund me my shipping costs. As you can tell, I am flaring pissed. So far, this f**k**g gun has been nothing but a $900 fixer-upper. Instead of training with my gun or enjoying range practice, I have spent most of the past two weeks visiting the local gunsmith. Also, this gun is my personal defense weapon. In a confrontation, the reliability of my firearm is paramount. If my gun does not fire, I will be dead. This disturbs me. So far, my gun has proven itself to be the proverbial “lemon.” My questions for you shooters, is, WHAT THE HELL DO I DO? I have 4 hi-cap mags for this gun, valed from $64 to $125 each. The magazines have NEVER been used. Hence, they are brand new. I paid $900 for the gun, brand new. As mentioned earlier, I hate this g** d**n piece of s**t. These problems are inexcusable. My plan is to purchase a new 1911 singlestack. But first, I need to reclaim some of my losses!!! Should I b**ch at Para-Ordnance? Should I have them fix the gun again and then I sell it? How much should I sell the gun for? How much should I sell the mags for? HELP!!! HELP!!! HELP!!! On another associated rant, the Para Limited series is a joke. You'd think that a $900 match-grade pistol wouldn't have as much plastic crap on it (mag catch, mainspring housing, trigger, grips). Also, there is this crappy plating on the barrel bushing and the end of the guide rod. It is already peeling. The stock presentation of my pistol is equivalent to serving someone a prime cut steak on a garbage can lid. I HATE YOU PARA-ORDNANCE!!! My plan is to buy a new, single-stack 1911 -- I was thinking about a stainless-steel Springfield. Your thoughts? Nevertheless, the main question remains: WHAT THE HELL DO I DO WITH THIS CRAPPY GUN?!?!?! Sincerely, Anthony J. Monteleone aka: poster-child for the Para-Ordnance hate club... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Man that just sucks. I can't believe Para would produce such a firearm, their highly regarded for their quality. the $2500 STI's have plastic parts as well, so Para is not the only one. I would ask Para to send you a shipping label postage paid, I do it and the company shouldn't have any problem with that. Unfortunately, a $900 gun doesn't mean it's the absolute highest quality. That gun might have been touched by 10 different people during it's gestation period and the QA guy at the very end might have been having a bad day and decided he wasn't gonna look at any guns, I dunno. But I'd definitely give Para another chance to fix it. Be nice, courteous but firm about what is going on and what you'd like done. They ARE NOT going to give you a new gun, believe me, I've tried. If they don't fix it to your satisfaction, I'm sure someone will buy it. Springfield is another top-notch manufacturer, but so is Para, so take it at that. I shoot a Colt series 80 alot in IPSC, I paid about $700 for it, but I sank at least that much in upgrades to where it is 100%. Just take a day or two off from it, catch your breath and calm down, THEN call Para and let them know your gun isn't fixed. Let us know what you find out. Rufus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illtmprdman Posted January 25, 2003 Author Share Posted January 25, 2003 The problem is, if I do decide to sell the gun, and the buyer asks the history of the gun, what do I say. Oh, the gun was a POS, that's why I'm getting rid of it. But you'd probably like it! Yeah, right... I'm between a rock and a hard place! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 If your hell-bent on selling it, take it to a local gunsmith and tell him to tune it up because your going to sell it, tell him what's wrong and let him fix it and unfortunately, take your losses. It's sad you had such a bad experience with Para, they really do try to make a good product. Have you tried contacting the President of Para to let him know about your problems? I wrote the Pres of IMI about a really F'd up Baby Eagle and he actually called me asking what he could do, believe it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 One other suggestion. I'm not sure where you live, but you could send it to Benny Hill at Triangle Shooting Sports, I GUARANTEE he WILL get it running and, it will be ready to Rock and Roll with the best Ltd guns out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Another alternative is Dawson Precision. He is TJ's smith (at least one of them anyhow) so he'd be well versed with Para's. Then, whatever $$$ you have to spend to get the Para running 100% and still decide to sell it, you can tell the buyer it was tuned by Benny Hill or Dave Dawson. You'd likely even recoup some of the $$$ you forked out, if not all of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3quartertime Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 I'm reluctant to say this because I'm a multiple para owner and I believe they can be fine competitive blasters. If I were choosing a carry weapon it would NOT be a para ordnance. There are more reasons than just reliability but the most important one is confidence and dependability. The choices of far superior weapons are well documented here. If you can afford to keep the para (with the money and smithing to get it running A1) I don't think you will be disappointed, even with the money spent. My .02 P.S. The market for used para's is flooded most times. I think you'll take a bath if and when you sell. My advice is calm down, find a carry gun you can rely on, get the para up and running like I know it can then make your choice about unloading it for much less than you payed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Big Dave i don't know where you live, but in my neck of the woods, unless you can find a buyer with exactly your personal taste in custom pistols, you will recover about 50 cents on the dollar you have invested in the pistol. Regardless of who built or tuned it. That is why is is paramount that you pick your platform with great care before you turn the 'smith loose on it. With regard to selling it, that is why they have gun shows. Tell the prospective buyer, yu need the $$ to get another gun (true statement), and let it go at that. crevat emptor, let the buyer be ware. If he asks you point blank if anything was wrong with it, tell the truth. But tell him you had it fixed, and don't have confidence in it anymore. One thing I have found is that there is a buyer for everything out there, you just have to look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 My take is a little different. You must MAKE para provide what you purchased. A working firearm. 1. When you call them, get the names of who you talk to, the dates, and write down word for word what they say. This technique will always get you what is promised. Tell them you're quoting them word for word, this drastically reduces the Bull___ factor. 2. Take the same detailed notes when you fire the gun. Time, date, location, the exact number of rounds that worked and did not work. Videotape the malfunctions, photograph the broken parts. 3. Find out who is authorized to give you a new gun. Trust me, some one can give you a new blaster. Talk only to them. 4. Be firm and very persistent. When you call every day at noon, they will soon figure out you're not going to go easy. They can't screw you if you don't let them. 5. Write a letter to all the major gun mags about your problem. Some get printed, and I suspect the emotional ones get back to the company via ad salesmen. This will work the best. Be sure to follow up the letter with one that details the fix. 5. Contact Dawson and Jarrett, ask for their advice or if they have a contact in the company who can help. Be VERY polite and express frustration, NOT anger. I wouldn't spend another dime on the gun until I got satisfaction from para. I had an "experience" with Beretta that was handled similarly. I got a new frame, exactly what I wanted. Good Luck, SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 I wouldn't spend another dime either. I'd follow Steve's advice to the letter. You paid for a working gun...you didn't get a working gun. The malfunction that you now have is a safety issue. Which means it could be considered a liability issue by Para. I would imagine they would wnt to fix this pretty quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 I don't know if this will make you feel any better, but I had to go through similar rigamarole with Smith and Wesson. I had a frame crack on a 45 auto and had to send the gun in to get a new frame fitted. Other than the crack, it was a perfectly decent gun. Unfortunately, when I got my gun back, the slide to frame fit was so sloppy, it audibly rattled when I shook it. My friends thought it was so funny they would dance around my living room, singing the cha-cha, while using my gun for a maraca. Humiliating to say the least. Well, after several heated phone calls, I finally got in touch with Smith and Wesson's Vice President. He made it right. I got a new pistol out of Smith's custom shop and the fit was tight. It's an awesome pistol. I still have it and probably will never give it up. Unfortunately, like in all business, gun companies get lemon managers and employees that just couldn't give a crap about what they're doing. With all the people that would just *love* to work for a gun company, you have to wonder why they are allowed to stay. With modern, CNC machinery and the prevalence of cheap, carbide cutting tools, there's just no excuse for sloppy pistols coming out of a factory anymore. None. Run your grievance up the chain of command. You never know. Para's leadership might be fascinated to know how and where the process broke down and your gun got sent out the door. Twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Is there no 'consumers guarantee' type of legislation over there requiring goods to be fit for the purpose for which they were sold? P.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illtmprdman Posted January 26, 2003 Author Share Posted January 26, 2003 UPDATE: I decided to calm down and rethink my situation for a moment. I couldn't call Para-Ordnance anyway -- they aren't open on Saturdays. So, my friend just received his FOID card, and I wanted to show him the ropes. Thus, I went to the range and used my pistol anyway. By the time we finished, we put about 200rds through my gun. Amazingly, the grip safety problem *disappeared*. MY THEORY: When the gun was reassembled, it was either reassembled very tight or a steel filing/burr got caught in the mechanism. After running 200rds through the gun, everything worked itself loose. Nevertheless, I am going to keep an open eye on the situation. I still have to call Para-Ordnance to get a refund for my original shipping costs. We shall see... We shall see... Thanks for all of your inpuut! Sincerely, Anthony J. Monteleone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkgsmith Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Anthony, all of the above advice is good, and I firmly believe any "smith" or gun company should back up their work. My team shot Para's for about 3 years as duty weapons with good results. If we had problems or breakages (which we did) Para took care of us, no charge or questions asked. The one thing that you must do to survive in the shooting sports is have a basic knowledge of your tools, a-la the the pistol. All of the problems you had should take a good "smith" about 2 hours fix. The best advice I can give is to get a good 1911 manual (Jerry Kuhnhausen, The Colt .45 Automatic). That book will explain every detail of 1911 clones from assembly/disassembly, the firing cycle, trouble-shooting etc. Hours of frustration can be delt with in a few minutes of reading. Some problems will still require a trained gunsmith, but most stuff is "do it yourself" quick fix type pistol smithing. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illtmprdman Posted January 26, 2003 Author Share Posted January 26, 2003 Once again, everyone in this forum has been AWESOME! Thanks for your input, advice, suggestions, and overall tolerance. It's good to have a place to rant and subsequently receive valuable information. Sincerely, Anthony J. Monteleone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 I feel your pain. I also bought a $900 Para Fixer upper. It's an LDA 1640 LTD. It had to be throated and polished, had to cut .075" off the rear sights to get the gun to hit point of aim, and had some other minor problems. I guess I was lucky because I was able to fix all the problems and now it is a really good gun. It's reliable and accurate as a tack driver. I'll bet yours will be good after the bugs are out. If you want a Para expert, the gunsmith Bob Hunter who frequents the 1911 Forum is one. He built a gun for me, I know he could fix yours. To answer your core question: what to do about a personal defense gun? Get one with a wheel where the bullets go. Mine is a SW model 66. I have a large stable of autos I shoot in competition, but I wouldn't bet my life on one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Hate to see anyony stuck with a lemon. Tell you what. Send me the gun & I will go through it & make it just like you want. Pay for any small parts I might need to use . There will be no charge for the work. We will use it for a forum test piece. turn around will be about 2 day's. 361/241/1091 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 I just noticed you are thinking about getting an SA? No offense to anybody, but that's going to be another gun from a mass-production schlocker and the quality will be anybody's guess. IMO, the least expensive gun that gives top quality, all tool steel parts and a match grade barrel is the STI Trojan. You pay about $200 more than a schlock gun (a Trojan costs $925) but you get a much better gun. Just my .02, but I do own two of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bulm5 Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Quote: from bountyhunter on 3:03 pm on Jan. 26, 2003 I feel your pain. I also bought a $900 Para Fixer upper. It's an LDA 1640 LTD. It had to be throated and polished, had to cut .075" off the rear sights to get the gun to hit point of aim, and had some other minor problems. I guess I was lucky because I was able to fix all the problems and now it is a really good gun. It's reliable and accurate as a tack driver. I'll bet yours will be good after the bugs are out. If you want a Para expert, the gunsmith Bob Hunter who frequents the 1911 Forum is one. He built a gun for me, I know he could fix yours. To answer your core question: what to do about a personal defense gun? Get one with a wheel where the bullets go. Mine is a SW model 66. I have a large stable of autos I shoot in competition, but I wouldn't bet my life on one. How do like the para that Bob bulit for you ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Anthony, I too have a POS P14 Limited. I sent it back to Para 2 times and still the barrel hood moves down .012" when I press on it at full lockup, the slide is .035" wider than the frame (rattle, rattle) and I don't even wan to talk about the sights! My experience with the people at Para means that I will never recommend them nor buy another one. The interesting news is that I'm gonna use this gun this season to get used to the 1911 platform. I'm a little scared because I have about 80% confidence in the thing, but I'm gonna do it. I thought about selling it, but I might just use it as a gunsmithing exercise. (tightening the slide to frame fit, installing new barrel, new sear/hammer) Benny, if Anthony isn't willing to use his gun as a forum test piece...I sure as hell am!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illtmprdman Posted January 27, 2003 Author Share Posted January 27, 2003 Dear Benny, I responded as soon as I read your response. That has got to be one of the most awesome offers anyone has ever made to me. Needless to say, I am VERY interested. Overall, here are some of the things I am interested in doing with my pistol: Dlask medium trigger Rosewood grips SS mainspring housing SS magazine catch Novak Lo-Mount adjustable rear sight Reliability tuning With respect to the sight choice, I don't even know if a Novak Lo-Mount adjustable will fit in the rear groove of the P14 Limited, let alone if it a new sight will work with the existing front sight. The stock rear Para adjustable sight is somewhat crappy, and this is also my personal defense gun. This may sound like a dumb question, too, but what is involved in using my gun as a forum test piece? Just curious... Do you have any idea how much something like this might cost? In addition, do you have any suggestions on what might be some other good things to have done to my gun (Para already polished the ramp and chamber)? Or, if you recommend something else than what I have listed, just say so. I trust your input. Once again, your generosity and professionalism are greatly appreciated -- it's good to know that there are some genuine people still out there. Sincerely, Anthony J. Monteleone ill-tempered-man@mindspring.com 224-627-3299 PS: I left a message at the number you posted. I also went to your web site, needless to say, I am impresed! (Edited by illtmprdman at 9:29 pm on Jan. 26, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffro Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 TO BENNY HILL: Just want to say that it is folks like you that make this shooting discipline such a great persuit. That offer you extended to Anthony was truly magnanamous. I am truly touched that one would "put themself out there" for a stranger, especially someone as talanted (and no doubt busy) as your reputation indicates. My hat goes off to you. Thank you for being one of those people that make it worthwhile to get up and go each morning. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 If Benny can't get it to run, then it IS a piece of junk. That is one hell of an offer from him, he's a real standout amongst the IPSC gunsmiths. Like I said earlier, he's the only one I let work on my STI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Benny, You the man. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Let me give you the true dope on Benny, I have guns Benny built and they always ran, I have guns Benny fixed and they always run now. He's a true friend, likes to have fun and is fun. He snores in the truck but knows where to eat. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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