Idpa Rookie - Again

[Crusher]

...The Rule Book is very clear on what is Vickers scoring....

Yes it is as defined below

"In Vickers Count scoring, as many shots as desired may be fired, but only the best hits as specified by the course description will be scored."

[Joe D]

I talked with Bill yesterday. He said for everyone to just take a Sharpie and black out the section on round dumping.

My wife and I have been shooting Sanctioned matches in Al, Ga, Tn and Ms for years. There has never been a FTDR call for round dumping that I am aware of. I doubt there ever will be.

The local matches we shoot follow the rule book pretty closely. About the only rules I see being ignored are the 3/4" holster space and round dumping. Don't see that changing.

[Jim Watson]

Right on, Crusher.

I see the definition of Vickers Count as having been written by Thomas Jefferson, the dumping penalty provision by Charles Schumer. Common sense bullet control, not really an infringement of your desire to fire another shot, don'cha know.

[Duane Thomas]

I talked with Bill yesterday. He said for everyone to just take a Sharpie and black out the section on round dumping.

Well, that sort of "clarification" from on high would change the scope of the discussion, would it not. Could we get that in an e-mail from BW himself?

[Flexmoney]

I am guessing the the Bill that Joe was talking with was the bill...of his ball cap.

[Glock3422]

My wife and I have been shooting Sanctioned matches in Al, Ga, Tn and Ms for years. There has never been a FTDR call for round dumping that I am aware of. I doubt there ever will be.

You don't have to have an FTDR to deliver a message or draw a line. A procedural will do just fine. The FTDR is for those instances somewhere between a procedural and a DQ. Something that is an accumulation of procedurals or a clear violation of the rules that does not involve safety, to the level of a DQ.

Don't get me wrong, I think round dumping is a tactic to be utilized in order to improve your score. If you don't do it well, it will be its own penalty. If you do it well, it will improve your result, which is the point of keeping score.

I've seen FTDRs issued for each stage shot using a holster that did not have all of the retention features functional. It was not an unsafe holster, it just had a retention device disabled. I don't think I agree with that since it was no less safe than any other holster in use at the match. It was certainly safer than some. It was at least as safe as mine.

One guy had his gun fall out while pasting a target. No penalty. Where is the justice in that? It was his good luck that the whole squad wasn't hot.

One guy saves some money by adjusting a full retention holster, another guy has his gun fall out of a holster that is adjusted too loose. Same match, one action interpreted to have intent, the other just bad luck. Hmmm.

I didn't mean to paint the entire west coast with one big brush, I'm just saying, the California match did not look as much like an IDPA match as it might have, if they used the rule book. I really don't care what the rules are, as long as we are all expecting and playing by the same book. It is that element of local rules and interpretation that makes what we have so frustrating.

[COF]

I've seen FTDRs issued for each stage shot using a holster that did not have all of the retention features functional. It was not an unsafe holster, it just had a retention device disabled. I don't think I agree with that since it was no less safe than any other holster in use at the match. It was certainly safer than some. It was at least as safe as mine.

The only place the rulebook talks about retention devised is under duty rigs. The LGB used to say "HOLSTERS AND AMMUNITION CARRIERS MAY NOT BE MODIFIED AND THEY MUST BE USED IN THEIR ORIGINAL FACTORY CONDITION FOR IDPA COMPETITION." However, the new rulebook says "NOTE: Modification of current holsters and ammunition carriers to meet IDPA criteria is acceptable. "

Another case of someone applying rules that used to was, but ain't no more...

Edited March 26, 2007 by COF

[Gregg K]

Another case of someone applying rules that used to was, but ain't no more...

Yep, you can make your own holster or modify an existing one to your hearts content under the new rules so long as it meets the criteria of the new holster rules.

I still see SO's call cover while someone is reloading and telling them that they have to suck back in and be completely behind cover for their reload, again old rules still being enforced.

I know it's only been a few years since the changes but you would think that folks would get around to reading the new rules by now.

[GmanCdp]

I talked with Bill yesterday. He said for everyone to just take a Sharpie and black out the section on round dumping.

My wife and I have been shooting Sanctioned matches in Al, Ga, Tn and Ms for years. There has never been a FTDR call for round dumping that I am aware of. I doubt there ever will be.

The local matches we shoot follow the rule book pretty closely. About the only rules I see being ignored are the 3/4" holster space and round dumping. Don't see that changing.

Joe..i just gave you a procedure on your post for stating the states out of sequence...

it's Al.,Ga.,Ms., then Tn.....

[Gregg K]

There has never been a FTDR call for round dumping that I am aware of. I doubt there ever will be.

You might want to check with Vincent on that, it happened to him at the Nationals. It's been a few years so he can probably talk about it now without his blood pressure pegging.

[Joe D]

Gman, I always save the best for last. Remember I am from Mississippi.

Greg, there has not been one called in those matches I mentioned. I lost interest in the Nationals when they moved from Tunica.

[GmanCdp]

Idpa Rookie - Again...........well not exactly what i saw this past weekend at the Tri state Regional held at MSSA range...we had one stage, 14 rnd total,started the stage in the middle of the wall,at buzz,go to either end and engage the T's in priority, 7 rnds each side,one side had a clam shell target... guess what..saw several ssp/esp shooters end up at slide lock going to the other side...procedure ????? nope...several MISSED the little superduper mini popper and several missed the clam shell target.....very hard to call round dumping on a good stage...

[hopalong]

I just happend to be shooting CDP with 8 round mags...............some how, some way, I ended up having to do a RWR on this very stage. I thought for sure I'd hit some of the Hard cover on that last target but can still see the front sight plainly on the -0 . (should have made up a couple of other shots though......down 5 for the stage.

A stage where RWR times were just as good as slidelock reloads........(I should know, I ran 80+ shooters through it )

So Eric, Slidelock reloads are more simple and require less brain activity (good for me) but RWR/Tacloads do have thier place and you should be able to use them accordingly.

Hopalong

[Duane Thomas]

I still see SO's call cover while someone is reloading and telling them that they have to suck back in and be completely behind cover for their reload, again old rules still being enforced.

The LGB didn't require pulling back fully behind cover to reload. That's a common misconception caused by the fact the LGB was laid out confusingly. In one spot it specified that cover must be used while reloading. In a completely different spot, pages away, it specified that "using cover" means all of the lower body behind cover, and no more than 50 percent of the upper body exposed. It's always been legal to reload in IDPA while maintaining a visual on the target.

[boo radley]

Well...so here's an example that's been weighing on my conscience.

6 targets = 12 shots, in an "alley" scenario. Without going into boring detail, you started behind cover and engaged T1, and it was a reasonably long, tight shot -- about 18-20y.

Then you proceeded forward, up the alley shooting T2 through T5 on the move, as they presented themselves, and when you reached a barricade at the end, wrapped yourself around it, and shot the T6.

At the speed at which you could shoot T2-T5, I wouldn't have wanted to do a regula--err, IPSC, reload, much less a RWR. You were flying up the alley. OTOH, you were going to get screwed if you had to wrap yourself around the barricade, take one shot at T6, unwind and get back behind cover, reload, and repeat.

Given that T1 was an awkward shot, about 20 yards away, I was hard pressed not to shoot it three times, in fact I *did* shoot it 3x.

Had T1 been closer, no, I probably would have shot it just twice, and suffered the awkward reengagement with T6.

[miyamoto]

Well...so here's an example that's been weighing on my conscience.

6 targets = 12 shots, in an "alley" scenario. Without going into boring detail, you started behind cover and engaged T1, and it was a reasonably long, tight shot -- about 18-20y.

Then you proceeded forward, up the alley shooting T2 through T5 on the move, as they presented themselves, and when you reached a barricade at the end, wrapped yourself around it, and shot the T6.

At the speed at which you could shoot T2-T5, I wouldn't have wanted to do a regula--err, IPSC, reload, much less a RWR. You were flying up the alley. OTOH, you were going to get screwed if you had to wrap yourself around the barricade, take one shot at T6, unwind and get back behind cover, reload, and repeat.

Given that T1 was an awkward shot, about 20 yards away, I was hard pressed not to shoot it three times, in fact I *did* shoot it 3x.

Had T1 been closer, no, I probably would have shot it just twice, and suffered the awkward reengagement with T6.

I would not worry about it. I have seen shots like that for years in idpa with no negative calls made on it. That is simply insurance.

I was squadded with Todd Jarrett at nationals one year who had a similar dilemma. This particular stage had t-shirts on targets to obscure scoring zones. Jarrett was moving to cover and on two of the targets in a row out of the array, he shot three rounds each (instead of two), which perfectly gave him a slide lock reload at cover, did his load and banged the targets from left side of cover.

One of the SO crew mumbled only slightly about round dumping. Jarrett said he dropped down-1 on each of the targets in question. They lifted the shirts and sure enough, these shots were each around 1/4in left of A-zone. The SO's let it drop. My only thought was "killer NPOA".

Might he have staged it?

Who knows...nobody would have been able to tell. Not at that skill level.

I think this has been blown far too much out of proportion.

Will

[Duane Thomas]

OTOH, you were going to get screwed if you had to wrap yourself around the barricade, take one shot at T6, unwind and get back behind cover, reload, and repeat.

Actually you wouldn't have had to unwind and get back behind cover. According to the IDPA Rule Book you could have stayed in that position and maintained a visual on the target while reloading.

[boo radley]

OTOH, you were going to get screwed if you had to wrap yourself around the barricade, take one shot at T6, unwind and get back behind cover, reload, and repeat.

Actually you wouldn't have had to unwind and get back behind cover. According to the IDPA Rule Book you could have stayed in that position and maintained a visual on the target while reloading.

Duane - it was a matter of the shot being awkward, and being off-balance, if one kept the "proper" definition of vertical cover requiring 100% of the legs and feet behind the wall.

You simply couldn't reload without unwrapping yourself from the shooting position -- the target was behind a wall, but both adjacent and perpendicular to it, if that makes any sense. It was a huge advantage to reach the wall at slide-lock; reload, lean all the way around it, and engage the target with two quick shots. You almost had to do it weak-hand only.

It's just one of those situations that sometimes occur with 12-round stages. You aren't trying to round-dump, but 3 shots vs. 2, on a far, difficult target, which *also* significantly help a reload, is a tough connundrum.