Are 10 Rounders That Un-reliable?

[ruready]

My Kimber has worked flawlessly with any bullets on a CMC 10 round magazine until recently, it started to have some troubles with failing to chamber and sometimes failed to feed. I recently started reloading and this is were all the problems started.

At first, I suspect that my loads are out of spec but if I download the bullets in the mags to 8 or 9, it feeds without any problems. Does that isolate the reloaded rounds.

OTOH, if I fill the 10 rounds to full capacity with factory FMJ's, it works fine.

Where do I start diagnosing this?

[mikegot38]

My Kimber has worked flawlessly with any bullets on a CMC 10 round magazine until recently, it started to have some troubles with failing to chamber and sometimes failed to feed. I recently started reloading and this is were all the problems started.

At first, I suspect that my loads are out of spec but if I download the bullets in the mags to 8 or 9, it feeds without any problems. Does that isolate the reloaded rounds.

OTOH, if I fill the 10 rounds to full capacity with factory FMJ's, it works fine.

Where do I start diagnosing this?

My Kimbers all run fine with 10 rounders from McCormick and Wilson when I do my part with good quality reloads that are the correct OAL. Suggest you check your reloads. The extra round, OAL and the configuration of the bullets are all factors to be examined closely.

Mike

[mlmiller1]

Are the bullets you are loading different shape or size than the ones you've been shooting? A different bullet shape may not run well in your gun. Another thing might be the way you are crimping the round. If you aren't pulling enough of the bell out of the brass, the brass may want to hang on the feed ramp. With a downloaded mag, the spring may have enough strength to get it over the "bump" in the brass. Try this, load a mag with 8 of your rounds, then top off with a couple of the factory rounds. If they run & this works, your problem is possibly weak mag springs with the crimp or bullet shape possibly compounding the problem. One other thing, are your rounds loaded long? Could they be long enough to be hanging slightly in the mag? These are just some ideas, at least a place to start, anyway. Good luck & come on back when you get it figured out & give us a report, ok? MLM

[Flexmoney]

It sure sounds like your reloads to me.

[ihatepickles]

My first thought was old magazine springs. It once worked well, now it doesn't. The FMJ are feeding properly because they are the best feeding bullet design.

[ruready]

I knew you guys would say that it was my reloads. My OAL is 1.24-1.25 on 200gr RN. Is that long or short compared to the .45 WWB. The crimp is about .470 and may possibly hang on the feed ramp.

On another note, I tried the CMC 8 rounders filled to capacity with my reloads and functioned perfectly.

I'll try to reload a few again and pay attention to the crimp.

[ruready]

Another thing, does it make a difference if the rounds fit perfectly on a dillon .45 case gauge but still failed to feed?

[dcarter]

Quick question, Are you using the same mag or are you trying other 10rd mags? I had a similar problem with a 10rd mag that I had had no problems with before. Turns out the feed lips were messed up. My suggestion are to try different mags & check your ammo as best you can.

[Carmoney]

I knew you guys would say that it was my reloads.

When it runs with factory ball, and it doesn't run with your reloads......it's your reloads.

Sounds like using more crimp will help.

[Micah]

The only issue that I have had, and this is in regards to Glock 10 round mags, is that they are more difficult to reload to. The lack of "give" in the tube equates to more force needed to seat the mag.

[JFD]

My Kimber turned into a jam-o-matic all of a sudden after a few months retirement once my wife started shooting L-10.

I finally changed the springs and all was well again.

[revchuck]

I knew you guys would say that it was my reloads.

When it runs with factory ball, and it doesn't run with your reloads......it's your reloads.

Sounds like using more crimp will help.

I disagree about the crimp, Mike. Any more and he'd start squooshing the bullet. My Speer #13 manual shows the case mouth at .473".

Since it's a 200 grain RN bullet, the OAL might be too long. If it's the one I'm thinking it is, it's actually a RN/SWC; if so, seating it so that the bearing surface (cylindrical part of the bullet) is just a smidgen past the case mouth - about 1/16" - should help. I'm guessing that you'd end up at about 1.20" OAL. Even if it's not the bullet I'm thinking of, I'd back off to that OAL and try it again.

Remember, since you're reducing the OAL, you have to back off on the powder charge a little and work back up to the velocity you want.

BTW - it's your reloads.

[ruready]

Quick question, Are you using the same mag or are you trying other 10rd mags? I had a similar problem with a 10rd mag that I had had no problems with before. Turns out the feed lips were messed up. My suggestion are to try different mags & check your ammo as best you can.

I didn't even thought about that. I've got 5 CMC's and only brought one at the range at the time. I'll try my other mags.

Just for testing the feeding problems, is cycling the bullets by hand a good test for feeding reliability? I was thinking in the interest of time, to just skip the priming and powder station and just do the resize, flare, seating and crimp. Is that a bad idea?

[superdude]

my guess would be that fail to feed is more of a problem with a fully loaded magazine than with just a couple rounds in it? right or wrong? the more rounds that are in the magazine they more the cartridge can nose-dive during feeding.

are the bullets you're loading copper jacketed or copper plated? copper plated bullets usually have a soft lead core and a thin coating of copper. they sometimes stop dead when they hit the feed ramp. traditional jacketed round nose bullets are the best for reliable feeding.

Edited February 19, 2007 by superdude

[ruready]

my guess would be that fail to feed is more of a problem with a fully loaded magazine than with just a couple rounds in it? right or wrong? the more rounds that are in the magazine they more the cartridge can nose-dive during feeding.

are the bullets you're loading copper jacketed or copper plated? copper plated bullets usually have a soft lead core and a thin coating of copper. they sometimes stop dead when they hit the feed ramp. traditional jacketed round nose bullets are the best for reliable feeding.

All of the above you mentioned are correct. The more rounds, the more it is likely to nose dive.

The bullets are only plated and I can see some dents on the bullets that jammed.

[mda]

Check the feed lips on the magazine. I have always used CM magazine and after awhile the back of the feed lips will start to bulge where the rim of the 45 acp sits. I bought a magazine Anvil set from Brownell’s. Reformed the lips and problems go away.

[Carmoney]

The bullets are only plated and I can see some dents on the bullets that jammed.

Hmmmmmm....you know, I have owned at least two guns (including a 1911 and a Springfield XD) that were absolutely 100% reliable with jacketed or cast lead bullet loads, but would malfunction with ammo made with plated bullets. I think it's because they're just so darn soft under the plating.

This could be the problem.

[superdude]

ruready,

its sounds like you have a typical problem of nose dive when there are lots of rounds in the mag, and in combination with those darn soft plated bullets.

i don't know how to solve the nose dive (but i have a reasonable idea of what causes it), but using regular full metal jacket bullets should solve the feeding problem

i'm writing stuff on nose dive feed failures and will have it posted on my website soon - whatever that means. in the meantime you can get a somewhat better idea of what is happening if you go to http://www.38super.net/Pages/Overall%20Length.html and check out Table 3 and Figure 6. and read the "angle of cartridge in the magazine" section. heck, read the whole thing if you enjoy self abuse.

this problem is inherent in 1911 magazines, and likely many others. understanding it is the first step.

as i said, i'll be adding more information on this topic to this website in the near future. until then, switch to honest FMJ round nose bullets.

by the way, its not your magazines. in fact i see this in all brands of magazines and all brand of followers.

Edited February 20, 2007 by superdude

[ruready]

Check the feed lips on the magazine. I have always used CM magazine and after awhile the back of the feed lips will start to bulge where the rim of the 45 acp sits. I bought a magazine Anvil set from Brownell’s. Reformed the lips and problems go away.

The feed lips on the magazines are a little bit rough. I'm not sure if that's the one that I was using when I experienced the malfunction. I numbered them now so I can figure it out. I'm going to try that magazine with my new reloaded rounds. Still using plated bullets though and will most likely be getting FMJ's.

Would using a LSWC be a better bullet than plated bullets?

Superdude,

Thanks for the link. Lots of information on your website and wil take me time to decipher what you're saying. I suck in geometry

[Singlestack]

Would using a LSWC be a better bullet than plated bullets?

My SS runs LSWCs 100%. Has for many years. It will choke plated within 10 rounds.

[superdude]

one important feature for reliable feeding is that the bullet nose must be hard! cast bullets are generally made from an alloy (lead, tin, antimony) that makes them hard. swaged bullets are soft since the lead is pressed into a mold. these tend to be sticky because the lead is soft and readily deforms. plated bullets - many of which are simply swaged bullets with a thin coat of copper are also commonly soft, though i remember buying plated cast bullets in the old days and they were hard, but they were also obviously cast - still had the grease groove.

cast round nose can feed as reliably as FMJ much of the time. cast SWC can also feed reliably because they are hard. however, their flat nose is subject to feeding problems because the nose is flat. they might run just fine for you.

swaged and plated bullets can be rather iffy with respect to feeding, especially if they come from a full magazine where the nose-dive angle is more prominent than when there are fewer rounds in the magazine.

[ruready]

I now totally agree that the problem are with my loads. The plated bullets are really soft and is messing up the feed.

Just for the test , I reloaded 10 rounds with an OAL of about 1.24 and manually cycled them on my magazines. Guess what? The bullets were getting deformed as it hits the feed ramp first before going into chamber. It's like a hit and miss thing. Sometimes it feeds correctly, sometimes it doesn't. I lengthened the OAL to about 1.250 just to change the point of impact on the feed ramp and it performed a lot better. Shot about 50 rounds with only a couple of jams. I was tempted to go 1.260, which I think is the OAL for a WWB but I'm not sure if it will crimp correctly since I'm only using 200gr instead of 230gr.

I guess it's time to try other bullets. I ordered sample of Precision bullets SWC and some FMJ's just to test. Hopefully, one of the two will feed correctly.

Bottom line I guess is, it's not my 10 round magazines to be blamed.

[ipscbob]

Are these the 10rd CMC mags with the folded and welded steel followers? When I was using these, I had to occasionally take out the followers and bend the top piece of steel up to spread the follower a bit. These become compressed with time and therefore support the nose of the bullet less. This may be a contributing factor to the nosedive jams you are seeing. I switched to Wilson 10rd'ers once I figured this out and the nosedives disappeared.